Manhattan Libertarian Party supports Ron Paul for president

At the 2007 Annual Convention of the Manhattan Libertarian Party, a resolution was passed encouraging Ron Paul to seek the Republican Party’s nomination for President. Nic Leobold, the original proponent of the resolution sought to have the convention delegates “endorse” Ron Paul, since he argued Dr. Paul is “the Gold Standard Candidate for all who cherish liberty”. However, the delegates amended his resolution changing the word “endorse” to a more general “encouragement” that he run. Some were concerned an actual endorsement of another party’s possible presidential candidate might violate the bylaws of the Libertarian Party . . .

You can read the rest of the press release here.

129 Responses to “Manhattan Libertarian Party supports Ron Paul for president”

  1. Eric Dondero Says:

    Very, very interesting. This fits. After all it was the New York Libertarian Party that also backed Howard Stern for Governor in 1992, and more recently William Weld, Republican for Governor in 1996 GOP Primaries. Shows that the New Yorker contingent of the LP is quite pragmatic politically.

    This Ron Paul candidacy really puts the Libertarian Party in a quandry. It was one thing for Ron Paul to win election to Congress as a Republican. Now he’s running for President on the GOP ticket.

    If nothing else it cements the legitamacy of the growing libertarian wing of the GOP, and more specifically, the Republican Liberty Caucus.

    My hats off to the New York City Libertarian Party for recognizing the growing libertarian trend in the GOP.

    Eric Dondero, Former Senior Aide
    US Congressman Ron Paul & Founder,
    Republican Liberty Caucus

  2. Eric Dondero Says:

    Oops, I meant to say William Weld in the 2006 GOP primaries, of course.

  3. Jim Lesczynski Says:

    Thanks, but I disagree that we recognized any “growing libertarian trend in the GOP.” Quite the contrary, we recognized the sole libertarian exception in the GOP. For the record, I voted against Weld at our nominating convention, and unfortunately, my distrust of him turned out to be well-founded.

  4. Eric Sundwall Says:

    Thank you, Jim. Mr. Dondero has a dubious capacity for co-opting any libertarian association with his war mongering, debt producing GOP.

    The fact that he supports one of the most anti-libertarian politicians that us New Yorkers have ever known, speaks volumes.

  5. Mark Axinn Says:

    As a member of the LPNY for 15 years, I gave nominating speeches in 1994 and 2006 for candidates running against Mr. Stern and Gov. Weld. Nevertheless, I support and voted for the Manhattan LP resolution because unlike the two aforementioned statists, Dr. Paul is a true hero of the freedom movement and endorses libertarian positions regardless of what political party he uses to get elected.

    It’s all about freedom.

  6. Nat Turner Says:

    Eric Dondero has already announced his plans to form “Libertarians for Giuliani” if Wayne Root or another warmonger does not get the LP presidential nomination.

    None of the other people he wants the LP to run have announced any interest in running. Some have already rejected the idea of running.

    Wayne Root only wants the LP presidential nomination if it does not interfere with his sports gambling business or his plans to run for Senator and/or Mayor as a Republican.

    Nevada LP chair Jim Duensing has published a public letter stating that he had never heard of Wayne Root before this or seen him at any LP events
    before this.

    Just a few weeks ago, Wayne Root was publically endorsing John McCain and Joe Lieberman as a presidential ticket.

    The title of Wayne Root’s book is “Millionaire Republican”.

    Eric Dondero started “Libertarians for Lieberman” and “Libertarians for Bush” and the “Republican Liberty Caucus” and has previously publically announced his intent to destroy the Libertarian Party.

    Eric Dondero screamed at former LP Presidential Candidate Harry Browne and current LP candidate for the nomination George Phillies on the radio, shouted them down, and claimed they are “not libertarians.”

    Ron Paul and Eric Dondero had a falling out, and are no longer friends.

    Ron Paul has already said he is not interested in running as a Libertarian again, and has filed papers to run as a Republican for Congress again.

  7. Trent Hill Says:

    Nat Turner, I almost completely agree with what you’re saying.
    The only part i will say anything against is the Ron Paul not running Libertarian again part. As Austin Cassidy mentioned, he technicallly CANT say “Yes. If I lose the Republican Primary. I will run under a fusion LP/CP ticket.”
    That would be both political suicide and stupid.
    The media would blacklist him. Republicans wouldn’t donate at all. Lets face it, the Libertarian Party AND the Constitution Party could never break 1.5 million or so in fundraising. Even with a REALLY big push.

    However, Eric Dondero is certainly not someone who should be listened to on the subject of Ron Paul or Libertarianism. Being that he told us several week ago that Ron Paul wouldn’t be running for Congress again (and he is), and that he considers Lieberman/McCain/Romney/Guliani/Root as Libertarians.

  8. Nat Turner Says:

    I did not say that Ron Paul wil NOT run as a Libertarian or Constitution Party.

    I said that he SAID he will not, which is a fact which is published and can be verified.

    It is also a fact that he has filed for Congress again, but he can always change his mind and withdraw from that race.

    He would hardly be the first politician to change his mind or his plans.

  9. Devious David Says:

    I don’t know of any falling out betwixt The Original Hyphen-Lady and Ron Paul. But as I said in a previous post, I suspect that The Original Hyphen-Lady has some kind of grudge.

  10. Nicolas Leobold Says:

    Just to clarify this discussion, my original proposed resolution did not “encourage Ron Paul TO run for President”, it encouraged his candidacy AFTER he had already announced his plans to run. That is why my original resolution was to “endorse his candidacy”. The Manhattan LP Convention took my original resolution langauge and amended it by sloppily replacing “endorse” with “encourage”. Unfortunately, you can’t get good English writing just by playing around with words and punctuation like a jigsaw puzzle. We should have spent more time on discussing the wording of this resolution, but the entire Convention was being rushed and pressured by the presiding officer, which deprived the meeting of significant contributions on other items as well. Here is the final language of the resolution as passed by the Manhattan LP Convention:

    “The Manhattan Libertarian Party Annual Convention of 2007
    encourages the candidacy of Ron Paul for President of the United States in the campaign of 2008.”

    Again, I strongly feel the Convention should have stuck to my original language including the word “endorse”, but we all know only too well that any group of Libertarians couldn’t survive one day without arguing or disagreeing about SOMETHING.

    Nic Leobold
    www.ManhattanLP.org
    www.LibertyDollar.org
    Get your silver Liberty Dollars from me: nleobold(at)msn.com
    Special Offer: Get a Liberty Dollar WalkBuddy FM Radio for only $5.99 plus $2 S&H when you place your first Liberty Dollar order!

  11. George Phillies Says:

    “...LP could never break 1.5 million in fundraising…”

    The 2000 Browne Presidential campaign raised rather more than that.

    George Phillies
    http://www.phillies2008.com

  12. Phil Sawyer Says:

    Trent Hill:

    It seems to me, Trent, that the bourgeois, establishment news media people are already blacklisting the potential presidential candidacy of Rep. Ron Paul. Why would anyone expect them not to? That is what they almost always do when they are faced with insurgent electoral movements that actually have a chance to make some big waves. Here are some past examples: (A) Eugene J. McCarthy’s independent presidential campaign of 1976; (B) Eugene J. McCarthy’s Consumer Party and independent campaign for president in 1988; the campaigns for the Democratic Party’s presidential nomination in 1992 by New Democrats Larry Agran and Eugene J. McCarthy, and by the New Alliance Party’s Lenora Fulani.

    Once again, I must say that some of you people are getting too far ahead of yourselves regarding Dr. Paul’s potential presidential campaign. At this point in time, he is not even an official candidate for the Republican Party nomination – let alone the Libertarian Party or Constitution Party nominations. If he does decide to go for the GOP nomination, it would be very fascinating to watch and could possibly really shake things up for the Old Guard Leaders of that political organization. What insurgent electoral campaigns have going for them nowadays is the power of the internet. That does throw the bourgeois news media off its typical balance – just a little, so far. However, the end of the monopoly capitalist/imperialistic epoch is fast approaching. Things will crumble very quickly when ithe new epoch (socialism and communism) begins in ernest. As the Jefferson Starship wrote: “It is a strong wind that blows against the empire.”

  13. Andy Says:

    “This Ron Paul candidacy really puts the Libertarian Party in a quandry. It was one thing for Ron Paul to win election to Congress as a Republican. Now he’s running for President on the GOP ticket.”

    I don’t really care as much about party label as I do about the individual. Ron Paul is a good man. He could run under the Communist Party banner and I’d still vote for him.

    “If nothing else it cements the legitamacy of the growing libertarian wing of the GOP, and more specifically, the Republican Liberty Caucus.”

    I just wish that there were more members of the Republican Liberty Caucus that were as good as Ron Paul.

  14. Andy Says:

    “Wayne Root only wants the LP presidential nomination if it does not interfere with his sports gambling business or his plans to run for Senator and/or Mayor as a Republican.”

    Wayne Root should run for mayor of Las Vegas first. I’d be more inclined to support him in that role because he’d do less damage there since foreign policy is not relavent to the office of mayor.

  15. Andy Says:

    “Just a few weeks ago, Wayne Root was publically endorsing John McCain and Joe Lieberman as a presidential ticket.”

    Which is another reason to keep him away from the Libertarian Party Presidential nomination.

  16. Jim Lesczynski Says:

    “Just to clarify this discussion, my original proposed resolution did not “encourage Ron Paul TO run for President”, it encouraged his candidacy AFTER he had already announced his plans to run.”

    Ron Paul has announced no such plans, which was pointed out at the convention and is one reason we changed the language on the original proposal.

  17. Andy Says:

    “George Phillies Says:

    January 27th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
    “...LP could never break 1.5 million in fundraising…”

    The 2000 Browne Presidential campaign raised rather more than that.

    George Phillies
    http://www.phillies2008.com”

    Yeah, I’m pretty sure that the Browne campaign had a budget of around $2 million, maybe a little more. Of course that is still chump change when we are talking presidential campaigns.

  18. Gary Donoyan Says:

    The Libertarian Party will have a candidate for President in 2008, and it clearly will not be Ron Paul. The Republican Party will also have a candidate for President in 2008, and it also, unfortunately, will almost certainly not be Ron Paul. Now it’s the RLC’s turn, but LP affiliates and chapters also ought to be prepared to scoop up the energized Paul supporters into their midst if and when he withdraws from the race.

    Gary Donoyan
    Chair, Nassau County (NY) LP

  19. Gary Odom Says:

    To Phil Sawyer:

    I bet you would be surprised to know that a member of the Constitution Party could be a huge Jefferson Starship fan, but I was and am. Saw them live at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in 1975. Perhaps the anthem for all of us should be Marty Ballin’s “Miracles!” Wasn’t “Blows Against the Empire” the name of one of their albums, too?

    I think one thing we can all do is express support for the concept of Ron Paul being the President of the United States.

    By the way, my sources say that despite his denials about being a candidate, Bob Barr will be the Presidential nominee of the LP, and everybody else is just so much window dressing.

  20. Chuck Says:

    Who cares what party Dr. Paul runs with. His constitutional voting record is well known.

  21. Mike N. Says:

    http://ronpaulexplore.com/

    http://upcoming.org/group/2556/

  22. Mike N. Says:

    I would have already donated if he accepted online donates… what’s the hold-up?

    http://ronpaulexplore.com/

  23. Kn@ppster Says:

    Quoth Gary Odom:

    “By the way, my sources say that despite his denials about being a candidate, Bob Barr will be the Presidential nominee of the LP, and everybody else is just so much window dressing.”

    Then your sources must be at extraordinary altitudes due to an over-abundance of hot air in their systems.

    It’s possible that Bob Barr might seek the LP’s presidential nomination, but nobody is in a position to guarantee that he’ll get that nomination. Not only have the people who will choose the nominee not been selected yet, there’s nobody with the centralized power to determine who those selectees will be—or who they’ll vote for.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  24. undercover_anarchist Says:

    Dondero: You are a former aid of Mr. Paul. I personally don’t consider either of you to be “libertarians,” and yet you still disagree on several points.

    1. Ron Paul is anti-war; you are a militarist
    2. Ron Paul is anti-gay and anti-choice; I thought that neither applied to you
    3. Ron Paul is an anti-capitalist protectionist; I thought you were pro-free trade

    Explain why this guy is a good candidate to you.

  25. undercover_anarchist Says:

    Mike: Honest question… Doesn’t it bother you that Mr. Paul is opposed to letting gay couples adopt children and wants to use the force of law to enforce his homophobic agenda?

  26. Conservative President 2008, editor Says:

    Ron Paul has also been endorsed by the LA Libertraian candidate for governor, T. Lee Horne, http://conservativepresident2008.blogspot.com/2007/01/libertarian-on-2008-and-more.html.

  27. Mike N. Says:

    UA - Ron Paul has stated publicly that it is none of the federal government’s business, however he personally isn’t pro-gay marriage. I would support him, regardless, because he is light-years ahead of the rest of the statists with regard to individual liberty. His positives FAR outweigh the very, very few negatives.

  28. Eric Dondero Says:

    Undercover Anarchist, I see you’ve resurfaced again. Or is it Nat Turner? All these made-up names. Make up your mind already.

    Good question actually.

    I’d say the area of biggest disagreement between me and my ex-boss besides the obvious, the War on Islamo-Fascism, is abortion.

    I’m Pro-Choice. He is not.

    We also disagree on the Death Penalty. I’m Pro, and he’s Anti.

    And beyond all that, we’ve got severe differences on cultural matters in general. Ron is quite socially conservative in his personal life. I am most assuredly not. I’m what you’d call a Punk Rocker, Let the Good Times roll, Booze it up, Jimmy Buffet Parothead, Military guy. Ron is pure elevator music, eat cookies and drink mild, and hang around the house to water the plants, sort of guy.

  29. Eric Dondero Says:

    Andy says, “I wish there were more members of Congress like Ron Paul.” Guess he missed the recent interviews and features in Reason Magazine on Congressman Jeff Flake of Arizona, and ex-Congressman, now Governor of Idaho Butch Otter.

    Flake has actually beat Ron Paul in the last three years on the Liberty Index, and I believe last year on the NTU scale, as well.

    Ron has a good voting record, no doubt. But at this point the Award for All-time Champion Libertarian Member of Congress goes to Jeff Flake.

  30. Eric Dondero Says:

    Bob Barr? I hope you’re right. I hope he does run for the LP Nomination for President. He’d be excellent! All I want is for the Libertarian Party to nominate the most Celebrity and Well-known and Rich candidate going.

    The better the Libertarian Party does and the more attention given to Libertarian ideals, the easier our job is as libertarians in the GOP.

    The ole’ carrot and stick approach. We RLCers lose without our brothers in the LP as the proverbial stick. Lately the LP’s stick (Browne & Badnarik years), has been more like a limp dick.

    Time for the LP to be an alunimum bat.

  31. Andy Says:

    “undercover_anarchist Says:

    January 27th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
    Dondero: You are a former aid of Mr. Paul. I personally don’t consider either of you to be “libertarians,” and yet you still disagree on several points.

    1. Ron Paul is anti-war; you are a militarist
    2. Ron Paul is anti-gay and anti-choice; I thought that neither applied to you
    3. Ron Paul is an anti-capitalist protectionist; I thought you were pro-free trade

    Explain why this guy is a good candidate to you.”

    Ron Paul is not anti-gay nor is he anti-free trade. You are a fucking liar.

    Ron opposed anti-gay marriage amendments. Yes, he did vote against gay adoptions in Washington DC, but I’d say that was more out of the realization of the fact that there are PEDOPHILE rings that operate in DC. Study the Finders Case, the Franklin Coverup, Johnny Gosch/Jeff Gannon, and Bohemian Grove. Remember the Mark Foley scandal.

    Ron correctly opposes NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, the WTO, and the FTAA because there are NOT REALLY ABOUT FREE TRADE, they are about government managed trade for the benifit of politically connected corporations. Ron Paul is in favor of real free trade.

    Instead of spouting your ignorance and making idiotic accusations and slandering the good name of Ron Paul why don’t you do some homework? Ron Paul has done more for liberty than you will probably ever do.

    I don’t know who is worse between you and Dondero.

  32. Andy Says:

    “I’m Pro-Choice. He is not.”

    Ron has stated that abortion should be left for the states to decide so since he is running for President his anti-abortion stance has little relavence.

    Also, as I have stated on numerous occassions abortion is not a definitional libertarian issue so one can be pro-choice or pro-life and still be a real libertarian.

    “We also disagree on the Death Penalty. I’m Pro, and he’s Anti.”

    Ron’s anti-death penalty stance sure doesn’t fall in line with a typical conservative image as most conservatives are pro-death penalty. More proof that Ron is not as conservative as some people make him out to be.

  33. Andy Says:

    “Mike N. Says:

    January 27th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
    UA - Ron Paul has stated publicly that it is none of the federal government’s business, however he personally isn’t pro-gay marriage. I would support him, regardless, because he is light-years ahead of the rest of the statists with regard to individual liberty. His positives FAR outweigh the very, very few negatives.”

    Mike N. hits the nail on the head.

  34. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    January 27th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
    Andy says, “I wish there were more members of Congress like Ron Paul.” Guess he missed the recent interviews and features in Reason Magazine on Congressman Jeff Flake of Arizona, and ex-Congressman, now Governor of Idaho Butch Otter.

    Flake has actually beat Ron Paul in the last three years on the Liberty Index, and I believe last year on the NTU scale, as well.

    Ron has a good voting record, no doubt. But at this point the Award for All-time Champion Libertarian Member of Congress goes to Jeff Flake.”

    I’ve done some research recently on Jeff Flake and the RLC. Yes, Flake is good on some issues, and so are some other members of the RLC, but all of them, including Flake, aren’t as good as you are making them out to be. If I can find the link to the article I’ll post it here but there was a list of like 10 important pro-liberty issues and Flake only voted for like 3 or 4 of them while Ron voted for all 10 of them.

  35. Andy Says:

    Updated Scorecard for Ron Paul’s Liberty Committee
    http://freedomdemocrats.org/node/739

  36. Phil Sawyer Says:

    Gary Odom: Not surprised at all, Gary. As a matter of fact, I am a former member of the American Independent Party of California (affiliated, nationally, with the Constitution Party). Yes, if I remember correctly, “Blows Against the Empire” was the name of one of the albums by Jefferson Starship. I have some literature about that album and currently it is located in a box that has not been moved to our new condo yet.

    Although generally wary of making predictions (and I will not here), I do think that your thought that Bob Barr will be the Libertarian Party nominee in 2008 is more on the mark than all of this talk about Rep. Ron Paul being the nominee of any political party. First of all, as I keep saying, he is not even an official candidate for the Republican Party nomination, let alone any other party. Furthermore, if he does run and fails to obtain the GOP nomination, would he consider doing a John Anderson and bolting the party to run as an independent (or “third party”) candidate? That is not for me to guess about since I have not followed his career as closely as that of Rep. Dennis Kucinich. In the case of Dennis, it is very unlikely that he would do such a thing. We know that from his past actions and words (which go together quite well) – very unusual for a politician! Dr. Paul should certainly go for it though (the GOP nomination, the Libertarian Party nomination, and the Constituion Party nomintion – the whole shebang). It might really help to shake things up! If he does not, though, someone else will shake things up. It always happens!

  37. Eric Dondero Says:

    More importantly Andy, the entire media nationwide now views Jeff Flake as the Nation’s leading “libertarian” member of Congress. I just saw something the other day on this. Ron Paul is too obscure, and how can I say this delicately, not nearly as attractive an individual as Flake. Jeff Flake is a very good looking guy, and I say this from a non-homosexual standpoint. That counts for a great deal.

    I’d rather have a very attractive individual like Flake AND MOST CERTAINLY SARAH PALIN, representing our libertarian movement on TV than the dour and oldish Ron Paul.

  38. Eric Dondero Says:

    Andy, Abortion Choice should most DEFINITELY be a big consideration when judging someone’s libertarianism. I’m not a lithmus test Libertarian on this, but it should most certainly be considered.

    Pro-War and Pro-Choice is FAR, FAR, FAR more libertarian than Anti-War and Pro-Life.

  39. Rebel Says:

    How can this Dondero guy be for limited government while supporting the biggest expenditure in our budget—war (the health of the state). Keep supporting Bush on the war and create more enemies for the future. What a genius! Notice how he always tries to show some credibility below his name. Otherwise no one would take him seriously, as I don’t. He’s trying to take the party of principle and sell it to the highest bidder (Root). I would never support Root nor any other neo-con that is promoted by Dondero. This guy sure has made a bad name for himself. Long live Ron Paul!

  40. Gary Donoyan Says:

    Eric Dondero writes:

    “Pro-War … is FAR, FAR, FAR more libertarian than Anti-War …”

    Wrong. Poor, confused fellow.

    At least he realizes he belongs with the Republicans, not the Libertarians.

  41. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    January 28th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
    Andy, Abortion Choice should most DEFINITELY be a big consideration when judging someone’s libertarianism. I’m not a lithmus test Libertarian on this, but it should most certainly be considered.”

    No it should NOT. Why? Because one can make a strong arguement that life begins at conception and therefore the fetus is an individual and has individual rights, therefore abortion can be considered murder. If a person believes that abortion is murder and opposes it they are consistent with libertarian ideaology.

    A person can clearly be pro-choice or pro-life on abortion and still be consistent with libertarian ideaoloy depending on when they believe that individual rights begin.

    Ron Paul has said that abortion should be left to the states, so since he’s running for President which is a federal office I don’t see how his abortion stance is very relavent.

  42. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    January 28th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
    More importantly Andy, the entire media nationwide now views Jeff Flake as the Nation’s leading “libertarian” member of Congress. I just saw something the other day on this.”

    Too bad he’s not more libertarian than he is. Also, I think that more people know who Ron Paul is than know who Jeff Flake is.

  43. Andy Says:

    “Rebel Says:

    January 28th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
    How can this Dondero guy be for limited government while supporting the biggest expenditure in our budget—war (the health of the state). Keep supporting Bush on the war and create more enemies for the future. What a genius! Notice how he always tries to show some credibility below his name. Otherwise no one would take him seriously, as I don’t. He’s trying to take the party of principle and sell it to the highest bidder (Root). I would never support Root nor any other neo-con that is promoted by Dondero. This guy sure has made a bad name for himself. Long live Ron Paul!”

    Well said!

  44. Nat Turner Says:

    Eric Don Dickhead is as always full of shit.

    He is just about the only one who considers Flake or Root to be real Libertarians, or even any warmonger could possibly be even close to a libertarian.

    He keeps spouting nonsense like saying Rohrabacher founded libertarianism.

    I guess Rothbard, Mises, Karl Hess, and many other people like Lysander Spooner (who died before Rohrabacher was born) were all followers of Rohrabacher.

    Rohrabacher was a libertarian for a shrt time in the 60s and 70s but then he became just another Reagan-Bush Republican.

    No wonder he thinks people like Flake and Otter are libertarians and ignores that many of them voted for things like the “USA PATRIOT” and Military Commissions Acts.

    Actually Dondero was only involved with a Ron Paul Republican attempt to take over the LP which is the period of time a lot of his “Libertarian credentials” came from.

    Then he was a Republican and had nothing to do with the LP for a long time, except to try to destroy it, which he admitted to.

    Then he came back very briefly with another Republican attempt to take over the LP with Gary Nolan, the sleeper candidate from Howard Ruff’s Republican Ruffpac. You can look that up.

    Then he quickly went on to be a Republican again and support the Bush Gang who has expanded government spending faster than anyone since FDR and is destroying all civil liberties in America with its dictatorial actions like illegal wiretapping.

    Which Dondero must like, because all the Republicans and Democrats who he endorses all like it, love it, want more of it.

    More torture.

    More domestic espionage.

    More secret prisons.

    More foreign wars based on lies.

    More terrorist blowback.

    More corporate war profits from tax theft.

    More militarized police.

    More excutive dictatorship, the president can just ignore the Congress and the Courts and rule as a dictator.

    I guess it’s ok that Bush, and Lieberman and other Democrats and Republicc and Dondero supports are big spenders, and prohinitionists, and some of them are gun grabbers like Giuliani and Schwarzenneger amd probably Lieberman. These are all politicians Dondero loves and supports, and he expects someone in tehir right mind to thin khe is really a libertarian?

    I think Dondero also said anyone who opposes the war is not a libertarian.

    That is what he was screaming at Harry Browne and George Phillies on the radio. What a bunch of horseshit.

    He knows it’s horseshit too, it’s just the wedge of stupid anti-Muslim lies and hysteria he is trying to use to destroy the L.P. just like he promise he would try to do.

    He alternates between trying to destroy it from inside and from outside.

    The vast majority of the politicians he promotes, are about as far from libertarian as possible.

    Then he likes some semi-libertarians but usually the worse ones because he is trying to sell people on the idea they are real libertarians, but they are not, people like Boortz and Starr and Cohen that should be booted on their ass out of the party because they support the war.

    Obviously the war is the only thing he cares about because he will support just about any politician who is for it and oppose any who is against it.

    This is the real truth about Dondero and everything else is just lies and window dressing.

    About the only time he tole the truth was when he said he was a bullshitter.

    If he really knew all the people he claim to know. It is probably only because he hung around like a dog with his tongue out begging for table scarps and trying to hump their leg.

    Then he goes on to try to destroy wverything they built and he will be right there sending all the real libertarians to the concentration camps which his Bush gang, Halliburtom is already buildin.

    If the Libertarians don’t want to keep disgracing their name they should kick all the warmongers, fraud taxers and immigrant bashers out immediately. They should have did it a long time ago.

    Instead they just want to keep selling out to conservative Republicans which is why the LP is probably finish and will never really fight for Liberty.

    So to hell with the whole thing. Just go ahead and nominate Wayne Root or Neal Boortz or some other scumbag. I don’t acre because the whole thing is dumb.

    Like Eric says they were always really just a bunch of fake libertarian Republicans, so why should any real libertarian even vote for them, they keep selling out more and more every day.

    Anyway I’m sick and tired of all the people kissing conservative asses on here. You can have your conservative-libertarian fusionist self contradicting horse shit. Life is too short. It’s too late from keeping this country from becoming a dictatorshup anyway so have fun playing stupid gamnes like Eric and his bunch who will probably be the offoicial fake “Libertarian” fake opposition after many ideas and forms of dissent are criminalized and the purges and round up start for real, which wil be sooner becaus e they started already but soon it will be many many many more peoplle and so the ones who are real libertarians here…see you in the prison camps, Eric wil probably be a guard.

  45. Trent Hill Says:

    Nat,

    Conservatism does not support a dictatorship.
    You arte so biased against true conservatism, you associate it with things like Bush.
    The truth is, Dondero is the only one here who thinks the Libertarian Movement only belong on the right side of the spectrum.

    I am VERY conservative, but would agree wholeheartedly that alot of the Libertarian movement belongs on the left. Do i think it should be limited there, like you? No.

  46. Eric Dondero Says:

    Hey, Paul Frankel is that you? You’ve come out of hiding huh? We’ve missed you.

    Sounds like you’re a bit down in the dumps. Guess it’s pretty hard being you these days, I mean after all with all this “Wayne Root Mania” sweeping the Libertarian Party on one end, and all sorts of Libertarian Party regulars supporting Ron Paul as a Republican for President, all the while Steve Kubby and George Phillies have virtually dissappeared.

    Cheer up, you can always bolt to the Green Party. They have a couple decent candidates already. That one chic from here in Texas actually seems kind of cool.

    Go off to the Green Party. One wonders why a Leftist like you was ever in the LP to begin with?

  47. Eric Dondero Says:

    It’s funny you’re so wobbly when it comes to defending a women’s right to choose Andy, but when it comes to defending America against Islamo-Fascism everyone must completely fall in line behind your Anarchist Anti-American viewpoints. Support giving our Nation over to the Islamo-Fascists or you cannot call yourself a “libertarian.”

    Wait a cotton pickin’ second. The Islamo-Fascists are also Anti-Choice.

    Ahha! It all makes sense now.

    Andy has no problem with supporting the Islamo-Fascists cause he’s Pro-Life and wants abortion outlawed in the United States.

    Like I said:

    If the Islamo-Fascists take over, they will force your girlfriend to wear an ugly burqa from head to toe, force you down to kneel to Allah 5 times a day at the point of a gun, stone loose women in your town square, outlaw booze and gambling, cut the genitals off your gay friends and throw your marijuana smoking buddy in jail for life.

    Welcome to the world of Paul and Andy. No civil liberties. Just Islamo-Fascism 24/7, 365 days a year.

  48. Eric Dondero Says:

    Trent, fyi, his real name is Paul Frankel.

  49. Trent Hill Says:

    I dont give a shit what his name is.

    As for you’re BS about Islamo-Fascism taking over American. Shutup.
    Everyone knows the United States COULD not be conquered by Islamo-fascists. There are too many gun owners, too large of a military.
    Secondly, there is a difference between waging an unpopular war against an invisible enemy over idealogical differences, and defending oneself.

  50. Devious David Says:

    Nat Turner just stole all the pages from my playbook! I have nothing left to say.

    Kudos, Nat!

  51. Nat Turner Says:

    No, douchebag, try again.

  52. Nat Turner Says:

    Hey, Dondickhead, you only got about 6 billion guesses left so keep trying.

    There’s no wayne root mania, that’s pretty much just you and really, you are the one who hates civil libertys, like freedom not to be wire tapped or sent to a secret prison, so why don’t you stop pretending you are anything exceopt a Fascist Republican because nobody believes you anyway.

    And I don’t give a fuck abot the so cal sellout liebertarian party or watermelon green party or any of theiir candidates because elections are rigged and voting is a joke.

    I use to care but now I’m sick of all of them. I’m not saying go do it but if there was real justice most politicians would be on death row or if you get rid of the death penalty, mandatory life sentence on Alcatraz.

    Oh yeah I don’t give a rats ass about any Republowcan Congressmans or blow dryed bookies either. So go suck some other dude’s jizz from out of your wifes ass Erikkk.

    http://www.votescam.com/

    That’s the real deal.

  53. Timothy West Says:

    ‘And I don’t give a fuck abot the so cal sellout liebertarian party or watermelon green party or any of theiir candidates because elections are rigged and voting is a joke.’

    well, then go on about yer business and leave those of us that still care about such things be.

  54. Nat Turner Says:

    No, I think I’ll keep pointing out reality so people don’t waste their time like I did.

    You already figured out the Democrats and Reoublicons all suck so your half way there.

  55. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    January 28th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
    It’s funny you’re so wobbly when it comes to defending a women’s right to choose Andy, but when it comes to defending America against Islamo-Fascism everyone must completely fall in line behind your Anarchist Anti-American viewpoints. Support giving our Nation over to the Islamo-Fascists or you cannot call yourself a “libertarian.”

    Wait a cotton pickin’ second. The Islamo-Fascists are also Anti-Choice.

    Ahha! It all makes sense now.

    Andy has no problem with supporting the Islamo-Fascists cause he’s Pro-Life and wants abortion outlawed in the United States.”

    THIS IS COMPLETE HORSESHIT! I NEVER SAID WHERE I STOOD ON ABORTION! DO YOU HAVE POOR READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS???

    What I said is that abortion is NOT a definitional libertarian issue. Why? Because it depends on when a person’s individual rights begin. Do they begin at conception or do they begin once the fetus is outside the wound? There are strong arguements on both sides of the issue and neither side can be proven. So I think that one can have either point of view and still be regaurded as a real libertarian.

    Contrary to the disinfo which you spew, I do not like any religious zealots who want to use force to further their agenda be they radical Muslims, wacko Christians, Zionist Jews or asorted nutjobs from any other religion.

    I do not support the “War On Terror” because I believe it to be a big sham that our government has created so that they can expand their power, both abroad and domestically. I do not believe that our government should be going around the world searching for dragons to slay, especially when given the fact that if any dragon needs to be slain it is them.

  56. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    January 28th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
    Hey, Paul Frankel is that you? You’ve come out of hiding huh? We’ve missed you.”

    I don’t think that’s Paul.

  57. Timothy West Says:

    yeh, never have figgered out why people that don’t care about voting and politics and the political process write so much about it on blog comments on blogs that deal with such things.

    if I don’t care about something, I don’t pursue it. I go do something else.

  58. Nat Turner Says:

    Just trying to help a brotha out.

  59. Andy Says:

    “There’s no wayne root mania, that’s pretty much just you”

    I used to be a big football and basketball fan up until the mid ‘90s. Now about the only sport that I watch is Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) fighting, as in events like the Ultimate Fighting Championship (which incidentily, current Republican Presidential candidates John McCain and Rudy Giuliani tried to ban; Giuliani’s ban of Mixed Martial Arts fighting events in New York City was actually successful and has yet to be overturned). I’ve been a huge MMA fan since 1994.

    So when Eric started talking about this Wayne Root guy I’d never heard of him but I assumed that if I still followed football and basketball that I’d know who he was. Well, I’ve asked a couple of guys I know who are hardcore football fans if they knew who Wayne Root was and they’d never heard of him. One of the guys is also a hardcore Libertarian and when I told him about Root’s views he was appalled at the thought of him being a Libertarian candidate.

    Outside of Eric I haven’t heard any buzz about this guy being a candidate for anything. While Root has some money and some fame it’s not like he’s a big celebrity. He’s probably not even a B level celebrity.

  60. Nat Turner Says:

    Hey what can I do.

    I was looking for a place to buy a Phillies Blunt cigar onlune and there was George Phillies, and Steve Kubby was smoking a blunt.

    I’m drunk so bare with me!

    A lot of good people are in the third parties because they want genuine change for the better. But the only way that any party will get power is by selling out and becoming evil.

    It happened to the Greens in Europe, they are no differnt from Marxist Social Democrats and the Libertarians in Costa Rica became, pretty much Reopublicans after one term in office.

    The people that wrote your precious Constitution never even lived by it.

    There is no time left to win any elections even if you could because there wil not be any more elections anyway but many of the people that should realize this are in third parties. So tell me what you think you are really going to win.

    Yeah, I’ll do something else, maybe I’ll take a few people with me to realize that libertarianism will never be achieved by any politicians, but by withdrawing our consent from politicians, and monopoly governments.

  61. Andy Says:

    “There is no time left to win any elections even if you could because there wil not be any more elections anyway but many of the people that should realize this are in third parties. So tell me what you think you are really going to win.

    Yeah, I’ll do something else, maybe I’ll take a few people with me to realize that libertarianism will never be achieved by any politicians, but by withdrawing our consent from politicians, and monopoly governments.”

    You very well may be right. The main thing that I hope to accomplish is to wake as many people up as possible as to the destructive nature of government. If enough people get woked up hopefully we can still turn things around.

  62. Nat Turner Says:

    OK I was pretty wasted late night, I did not call Devious a Douchebag (thanks for the Kudos BTW) that was for Eric of course.

    Nice try but I am not Paul. I think he’s another abortion basher and he believes in the LP.

    He should really be smarter than that because he is right about a lot of things except womens rights and partyocracy. Which of course is the bane of real libertarianism, which is totally anti-voting.

    Also for those who say you can be anti-choice and be a real libertarian that is bullshit.

    Either the fetus is not a person (most likely) in which case it’s the woman’s body to do with as she wants.

    Or if it;s a person there is a simple explanation as well, which is that it is trespassing which means: abortion is just a form of eviction.

    Otherwise you have slavery where in the woman is forced into slavery for nine months and very often 18 years unless she gives up the baby for adoption.

    But what if there is not enough people who want to adopt after abortion is outlawed?

    I guess that’s almost 19 years of slavery at a minimum.

    And what about rape and incest. A lot of women and especially young girls
    do not want to go to court and admit much less prove they got raped or abused by family members, priests, coaches, etc.

    So now you want to force them to have dangerous back alley abortions or have kids to have a daily reminder about how they were raped.

    That is sick and very mufch not libertarian.

    Basically whatever fanncy justifications you come up with the real reasoon
    why a lot of so called libertarians are against immigration is because they are racist. Oh yeah the black Mexican-bashers are racist too. And the self hating Mexicans out there, are just haters who want to pull up the ladder.

    Similarly anti-choice so called libertarians, basically are anti-women and want women to essentially be domestic slaves.

    A lot of “states rights” libertarians also want to go back to Jim Crow laws.

    And the Constitution Party is even a lot worse.

    The warmongers, of course are not libertarian and not even Constitutional so there is mothing to talk about there – they are just plain straight up fascist.

    Anyone who does not know this has their head so far up their ass it’s coming back out of their red neck.

    A lot of this stems from following irrational religions and being raised as flag humping militarists, and worshipping the state.

    Also a lot of so called libertarians don’t realize how big business is totally intertwined with government and think business are the good guys. They only look at one side of the equation about government regulating or taxing business and have no clue about how government helps out big business against the little guy a lot more so. And that a lot of big business is even owned or part owned by the government.

    So they defend polluters and corporations like they were the good guys, but this is just stupid.

    A lot of the quasi-libertarians are just basically yuppie scum who hate poor people. They should experience living in poverty some time and learn what it is really like and not run their ignorant ass mouth so much.

    The Greens are not any better. They are totally owned lock stock and barrel by statist Marxists.

    A lot of Greens are decentralist, anti-authoritarian, anti-government and even anarchist libertarian. But just like the real libertarians have figured out how the Libertarian Party is not really libertarian but just ultra-Republican so too has most of the real Greens figured out the Green party is just a Stalinist-Maoist commie front group.

    So the real libertarians and the real greens basically just don’t vote.

    They sure as hell don’t get too involved with the Bob Barr-Ron Paul-Neal Boortz Party or the Nader-Camejo party or any of that nonsense.

    All governments are a pyramid scheme and parties are designed to climb the pyramid. That is all. The closer to the top you get the more corrupt.

    There is no way around it, the system has been around a long time and you can either be an ineffective third party or you can sell out “just a little” and be more corrupt, and then just a little more and then before you know it you see the pig bastards walking upright.

    Or you realize that strategy will never work.

    Put it this way, if any good person makes any real waves they will probably be killed or put in prison even if the charges have to be trumped up. Or ruined by a scandal, usually phony, or something.

    If you want to play those games good luck, but I hope some of you realize this is the wrongh way to achieve what you really want.

  63. Timothy West Says:

    It’s our time to waste ( or not ) and I’ll spend mine doing what little I can to make the LP effective and politically natured.

    and you dont support what I really want – which is a small limited government that respects and abides by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    ‘So they defend polluters and corporations like they were the good guys, but this is just stupid.’

    gotta agree with you there. The LP needs to stand for ending the current debt based sharecropper society, where we just have enough to live but never to prosper unless we put ourselves into debt.

  64. Gary Donoyan Says:

    Nat Turner writes:

    “... the real libertarians have figured out how the Libertarian Party is not really libertarian but just ultra-Republican …”

    Well, that may be where the Manhattan Libertarian Party is headed, but there is still hope for the rest of the LPNY.

  65. Sean Scallon Says:

    Kudos to the Manhattan LP for seeing the good it can do in shaping the national debate by supporting Ron Paul and giving his campaign some credibility. Hopefully other LP and non-major party groups can do the same and build momentum towards Paul’s candidacy.

  66. Joel Says:

    And another thread that develops into who is more libertarian….

  67. matt Says:

    gotta agree with you there. The LP needs to stand for ending the current debt based sharecropper society, where we just have enough to live but never to prosper unless we put ourselves into debt.
    =====================================
    In my opinion, Dr. Paul is the libertarian with the best plan to crack open our debt-based economy. Switching back to the Gold Standard is the single best move we can make to switch from being a debt culture to being a savings culture. Savings hasn’t made sense for a long time because of fiat currency devaluation, and that’s why we’re stuck in a sharecropper society. The Bible warns that “the borrower shall serve the lender”, and every time we do business with a debt-based currency, we attest to that fact.

  68. Joseph Knight Says:

    Well, gee. I hereby endorse Ron Paul for the Republican nomination for Presdient.

    If he gets it, I will even consider voting for him.

    But I’m certainly not going to change my registration to vote for him in the primary. And I don’t think he has a chance – the GOP is an authoritarian war party, they won’t be nominating anybody who is for freedom and peace.

  69. Andy Says:

    “Also for those who say you can be anti-choice and be a real libertarian that is bullshit.

    Either the fetus is not a person (most likely) in which case it’s the woman’s body to do with as she wants.

    Or if it;s a person there is a simple explanation as well, which is that it is trespassing which means: abortion is just a form of eviction.”

    The “eviction/tresspassing” arguement is absurd. IF the fetus is regaurded as an individual that has individual rights, then “evicting” the fetus is murder, unless of course you can “evict” the fetus into an incubator.

    This arguement makes about as much sense as if an airline were to “evict” somebody at 30,000 feet without a parachute. Even if the person is a stowaway throwing them off the plane should be regaurded as murder.

    If you want argue that the fetus is not an individual yet and therefore does not have individual rights yet, that’s fine, but this arguement you are presenting above has no merit.

  70. Andy Says:

    “Similarly anti-choice so called libertarians, basically are anti-women and want women to essentially be domestic slaves.

    A lot of “states rights” libertarians also want to go back to Jim Crow laws.

    And the Constitution Party is even a lot worse.”

    One could just as easily say that pro-choice libertarians are anti-baby and favor mass murder of the innocent.

    Sending abortion back to the states is better than what we’ve got now. Some states like Utah might classify it as murder and outlaw it, other states like California would probably keep it legal.

  71. Andy Says:

    “They sure as hell don’t get too involved with the Bob Barr-Ron Paul-Neal Boortz Party or the Nader-Camejo party or any of that nonsense.”

    Ron Pual is better than Bob Barr and a hell of a lot better than Neal Boortz.

  72. Brian S Says:

    Who is Wayne Root? And why would he run for president?

  73. Trent Hill Says:

    Exactly Brian. Exactly.

    Ask Dondero,he seems to be the only one with any knowledge of Wayne Root.

  74. undercover_anarchist Says:

    Hey, I’m radically pro-choice… Abortion on demand and without apology.

    But I still say Dondero’s comment is off the mark. Pro-war is less libertarian than pro-life. Real libertarians are pro-choice, anti-war, anti-racists.

  75. Eric Dondero Says:

    Okay Andy, fair enough. I will take you at your word.

    Now, I have a very specific question for you.

    Pretend you are a City Councilman in The Hague, Rotterdam or Amsterdam in the Netherlands. The Muslims in your city are clammoring to outlaw prostitution. They are threatening to riot if you and the other Councilman do not follow their wishes.

    What do you do? How do you vote?

  76. Eric Dondero Says:

    Very ironic that you all just asked the question, “Who is Wayne Root?”

    Today Wayne Root is featured on Newsmax for his column “My Libertarian Awakening.” It’s in the US Section.

    www.newsmax.com

    Wonder if Kubby or Phillies has ever been on Newsmax?

  77. Trent Hill Says:

    Its ironic because that is the point Eric. No one knows who he is.

    Eric, how do i vote? I vote on principle. Whether I agree with them or not, I would vote based on my own political beliefs. Im not sure what the point of this was Eric. If they riot,thats up to the police. If they have the vote to defeat you, guess what? They defeat you, tough noogies.

  78. Nat Turner Says:

    Who gives a fuck about Newsmax? Are they a libertarian site? Hell no they are fascist. Just like most of the Republicans and some of the Libertarians that ware warmongers.

    Like undercover anarchist said real libertarians are pro-choice, anti-war, anti-racists (which means immigration freedom for all you not-so-subtle-as you think white power, pro-patriarchy, guys) so who is a real libertarian?

    Not Wayne Root who is a warmonger and a supporter of the military industrial complex. If he is for immigration freedom at all it is probably “guest worker program” which is better known historically as indentured servitude and totally in line with military-industrial, state-corporate fascism and imperialism which the fake libertarians support.

    And another type of fake libertarians supports slave rapist Constitutionalism, Jim Crow states rights, border facsism, domeestic servitude and enslavement for women as baby factories, and are gay bashers and bigots in general.

    So Ron paul is also not a real libertarian.

    Since the real libertarians are not really welcome in the Libertarian Party who gives a damn about that party, why should any real libertarian support them? Just because they call themselves libertarian? So what? You can put a wig on a pig and its stil a pig.

    The Green Party is controlled by statist Marxists and the Democrats are corpoarate sellouts who support the drug war, will probably run a warmonger like Hillary for president, don’t have the guts to impeach Bush Cheney or cut off funds for the war.

    None of these parties are any good and they are all evil and ultimately all government is evil and they exist to control government.

    They are all basically comtrolled by scum sucking power hungry fascist pigs with no soul despite all the good people who are deceived into supporting all these parties and into maintaining the fraudulent sytem by voting. Even though there is no one worth voting for even as a protest vote and the votes are not counted honestly either.

    Look up vote scam abd black box voting and the fact that Bush stole both
    elections and blew up the towers.

    It’s all about imperialism and teh rest is window dressing.

    And they lie is say Vote or Die. It’s more like Vote -> Die.

    As a slave. And you are building the very ovens and camps just a little every time you vote or legitamize the system.

    None of tehse parties even deserve your protest vote because none of them really stand for anything good. And besides most of the protest votes are thrown in the trash anyway. If any real oppositiojn post a threat to the staist quo the elections woyld get suspended in a heart beat or there would be a phony terrorist incident and all the supporters of that party would be rounded up.

    If you think any of these parties will ever be wllowed to become big you are very naive or an idiot or insane.

    There will probably not even be any more elections anyway. Even if there are they will be phony stoilen elections just like teh last few. Which hardly even matters.

    The Romans called it bread and circuses and the more things change the more they remain the same. We have modern day slavery, imperialism,
    and everything else from the Roman Empire days.

    Some of you a are smart enough to know this is true true, and don’t want to admit to yourself, but come on you know it’s true.

    Stop lying to yourself. These are the facts, and you know it.

    America is an evil empire filled with corruption, corporate wage slaves and tax slaves, and the rest of the world is no better.

    If that is what you want to fight for, you deserve a place in hell if there is one, or whatever karma is coming to America in destruction, or if you are an atheist just use some logical reasoning and research and see this is true and where it leds.

    I don’t think really too many people are really so retarded not to know this, it’s mass denial mass psychoses people just don’t want to face the truth.

  79. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    January 29th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
    Okay Andy, fair enough. I will take you at your word.

    Now, I have a very specific question for you.

    Pretend you are a City Councilman in The Hague, Rotterdam or Amsterdam in the Netherlands. The Muslims in your city are clammoring to outlaw prostitution. They are threatening to riot if you and the other Councilman do not follow their wishes.

    What do you do? How do you vote?”

    I would vote to keep prostitution legal. If the Muslims want to riot over it than their rioting should be defended against with lethal force. If they don’t like it they should move out of the country.

  80. Andy Says:

    “Like undercover anarchist said real libertarians are pro-choice, anti-war, anti-racists (which means immigration freedom for all you not-so-subtle-as you think white power, pro-patriarchy, guys) so who is a real libertarian?”

    I don’t consider “undercover_anarchist” to be an authority on libertariniasm, nor do I even consider him to be an anarchist. He support the Federal Reserve System, eminent domain, Affirmative Action, and the concept of taxation.

    The majority of the people who are upset about illegal immigration are upset over the fact that it is growing the welfare state and increasing the crime rate. Yeah, most of the illegal immigrants are hispanic, however, this doesn’t mean that everyone hates all hispanics. I know that some hispanics are pissed off about illegal immigration as well and that there are actually hispanic Americans who are members of The Minutemen.

    Notice how you don’t see many people criticizing Asian immigrants. That’s because they aren’t the ones causing the bulk of the problems.

  81. Andy Says:

    It’s funny how these “politically correct” leftist fools are so quick to point the finger of racism at any one who expressing any concern over immigration, while at the same time completely ignoring the VERY REAL racism that is held by the immigrants that they defend.

    Racist Mexican Gangs “Ethnic Cleansing” Black in Los Angeles
    http://www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/mexican_gangs_ethnic_cleansing_blacks_in_la.htm

    Remember the old question on the Advocates for Self Government quiz about letting PEACEFUL people cross borders freely? Do the people in the article above sounds like PEACEFUL people to you?

  82. matt Says:

    Can I take this one Eric?

    Two words:

    Armed Prostitutes.

  83. Nat Turner Says:

    Andy…a few things real quick I think you are mis representing the views of undercover anarchist. Now first of all his statement was correct and I endorse it regardless and saying he is for something else that is not libertarian, does not make what he said which is true to be less true. This is a fact even you can’t deny even if you are filled with Anti-Mexican racial hatred in your heart.

    Now as far as the things you mention which he is supposedly for I think you are exagerating. He may believe in preserving them temporarily but ultimately wants to get rid of them. Now I would get rid of them as quickly as possible but that does not mean those are the issues we should focus on.

    If being against affirmative action is preventing us from building a better coalition to stop the war, or stop the government’s war on immigrants, or legalize marijuana, or legalize prostitution, or impeach bush or stop police militarization, or stop the patriot act and secret prisons and presidential dictatorship and illegal witertapping, end imperialism, end corporate fascism and wage-tax slavery, or other issues that are truly more important, who cares really if some straight white males get discriminated against for a change? Ultimately it’s wrong too but there are more important things.

    Maybe we can get rid of taxes, welfare and the need for affirmative action, but only after we legalize drugs, end the military-industrial complex, and level the playing field for small business mom and pops and poor folks trying to get a break, by getting rid of corporate-government collusion. Then people can rise up without government help which is not really help at all, just a crutch and a prison.

    But when all you want to talk about is how the straight white males and the rich people are the ones who are oppressed, and talk about how you want to cut taxes and end affirmative action no wonder people think you are just a greedy selfish bigot even if it is not true. So they will never pay any attention to any legitimate argument you may have on any economic issue or anything like that.

    You have to show that you are on the side of the people, not the side of the oppressor, explain about how you want to liberate and empower communities of color, make things more equal for women and gays, bring justice, protect the environment, create more economic justice and better education and make things better for young people and how the best way to do it is with anarchy and getting rid of government. Otherwise if you are perceived to be on the side of the oppressors and the corporations of course no one who is not benefitting from the status quo will be on your side and see you as anything except the enemy.

    And the establishment and those who benefit from it will not see as an ally either. The people who should be your ally will see you as the enemy and the people you are stupid enough to try to appeal to will also see you as the enemy because they knwo the truth that big government really benefits them.

    Now as for the bullshit coverstory that the people who are upset over immigration are only worried about welfare or gangs. That is a whole lot of horseshit. You know damn well there are a lot of racist bigots and that is the real reason they hate immigrants and a lot of them will straight up tell you they want to protect “their” jobs and “their” neighborhoods and “their” women, what a bunch of shit.

    I think chances are you are probably in that category too but I will goive you the benefit of the doubt.

    You know first up, straight up there is a lot more Mexicans who work hard and bust their ass and even pay taxes they can never get benefits from or work off the books and contribute to the economy. In fact they work the hardest and cheapest out of anybody. If somehow you could enforce your bullshit border which is completely illegiteamate anyway your whole economy would collapse, a lot of goods and services would be less affordable or not even on the market at all. Whicg is of course what will always happen when the government puts up artrificial barriers in the way of trade amnd imigration.

    So yes I am for peaceful people crossing borders. I hope a billion of them do and the white people learn what it is like to be a minority in this country for a change, it would only balance the scales of justice. But better yet get rid of the borders and the government and we are already there.

    Now you may want to paint the tens of millions of immigrants in this country as all or most or a large percent being on welfare or gang bangers
    but you know damn well that is bullshit and an ugly false and racist thing to say. Plus it does not make you look good and no wonder nobody wants to vote for your party or give you the time of day.

    So what. There are plenty Americans born in this country who are on welfare or gang bang. And no they are not all black. Surprise. I think we all know who the real big time gang bangers and welfare cases are, the big corporations, the military, the cops, and yuppie scum and people like that but of course all they want to do is blame the poor for doing a small amount of what they do them selves.

    Also at one time people made all the same arguments about the Jews. The Irish, Italians, Poles and other people who immigrated to this country. They said they were criminals and blah blah blah, all the same shit you hear now, so there really is nothing new under the sun. Let’s call it what it is racism and bigotry.

    If you hate people from another culture stop hiding behind a libertarian facade and just admit to being a bigot, or you can be a real libertarian and support immigration rights, women’s rights to abortion and equal rights to marry and adopt children for gay people. If you are against these things it is safe to say you are definitely not a libertarian, just like if you are a warmonger you can not be a libertarian, or if you support the war on drugs and victim disarmament you could not be a libertarian.

    2-4-6-8 organize to smash the state!

  84. Kn@ppster Says:

    Quoth Eric Dondero:

    “Wonder if Kubby or Phillies has ever been on Newsmax?”

    As far as I know, Kubby hasn’t done any slumming at NewsMax. When he appears in disgruntled Republican territory, it’s generally at the more popular WorldNetDaily.

    Tom Knapp

  85. Darcy G. Richardson Says:

    “As far as I know, Kubby hasn’t done any slumming at NewsMax. When he appears in disgruntled Republican territory, it’s generally at the more popular WorldNetDaily.”—- Tom Knapp

    Excellent comment, Tom

  86. Andy Says:

    “So yes I am for peaceful people crossing borders. I hope a billion of them do and the white people learn what it is like to be a minority in this country for a change, it would only balance the scales of justice. But better yet get rid of the borders and the government and we are already there.”

    Of course as I have already proven, many of the “immigrants” in question are NOT peaceful. Also, it sounds to me like you are filled with “white guilt” or “hate whitey”. You point the finger of “racism” but it sounds to me like you are in fact a racist yourself.

  87. Andy Says:

    “Nat Turner Says:

    January 30th, 2007 at 12:26 am
    Andy…a few things real quick I think you are mis representing the views of undercover anarchist.”

    I’m not mis-representing. I’ve read his posts for months. He thinks that the Federal Reverse System is good. He thinks that NAFTA, GATT, the WTO, the FTAA, and CAFTA represent real free trade. He’s in favor of the proposed “NAFTA Superhighway” which is a gigantic highway that is currently in the planning stages which is going to go through the middle of this country and will require eminent domain takings on a grand scale (he thinks that eminent domain is OK). He calls anyone who opposes Affirmative Action a “racist”. He believes that taxes are necessary. He’s certainly not a real anarchist.

    “Now first of all his statement was correct and I endorse it regardless and saying he is for something else that is not libertarian, does not make what he said which is true to be less true. This is a fact even you can’t deny even if you are filled with Anti-Mexican racial hatred in your heart.”

    So now I’m filled with “Anti-Mexican racial hatred in my heart”. HOW IN THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THIS? You don’t know me! I don’t hate Mexicans or anyone else based on their race or ethnicity. Over the course of my life I’ve had friends that were black, hispanic, Asian, Jewish, etc… Yeah, I’ve got a problem with hordes of immigrants entering the country and sucking off the welfare system and committing crimes (as in acts of violence, theft, and destruction of property) but this is FAR REMOVED from “hating” Mexicans.

    You are engaging in a typical leftist tactic of playing the Race Card. “Oh, somebody disagrees with me so they are a racist.” WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

  88. Andy Says:

    “Now as for the bullshit coverstory that the people who are upset over immigration are only worried about welfare or gangs. That is a whole lot of horseshit.”

    No, these are very legitimate concerns.

    Also, I find it very telling that you demonize whites for being “racist” but yet completely ignore the racism that is very prevalent in the La Raza culture.

  89. Andy Says:

    “women’s rights to abortion”

    When have I given my stance on abortion? I have NOT said where I stand on abortion.

    I only said that people can be pro-choice or pro-life and still be libertarians. I’ve already debunked your assertation that pro-choice is the only libertarian view. I invite both pro-choice and pro-lifers into the Libertarian Party.

  90. Nat Turner Says:

    Nice try Andy.

    “Many” of the immigrants are not peaceful ?

    Well what about the rest, I guess collective guilt and collective punishment can join collective property in the whole country bythe state as libertarian ideals.

    Hey I have an idea. Since we want to have everything be all state level and shit, why not immigration control too? We can have border checkpoints every time you cross state lines and only people who prove they are peaceful will be allowed to go from state to state. When the people of Arizona decide to allow people from California ti ebter they will vote to allow it!

    Why this would be great, it would be more states rights and less fedra;l.

    After all many Californians are known to be gang bangers and on welfare so if get rid of Welfare in Arizona we don’t need to import any Californians
    and so that wil be great. They wont be taking away our jobs and we can just have a lot of fun by ourselves.

    Why not, we already esyablished Rights Violations are onlya bad thing when they are federal, but it’s ok for states to do just about anything. So maybe this would kill two bird’s with one stone.

    After all many people going from state to state are not peaceful! Some are criminals and cary diseases and some are on welfare. Why should we allow free movement between states? Many of the people in Arizona don’t want any more Californians!

    By the way I don’t hate white people even though a lot of them are assholes. Of course going by your logic I should hate all wite people because “many” of them are this that or the other thing. I don’t think it would be such a terrible thing if they learned what it’s like to be the minority in America though.

    Which will happen whether you like it or not, so you may as well get used to it.

    First up I read undecover anarchist posts for months too and actually I do thing you are spinning his view points. He believes in changing the laws incrementally and ultimately would get rid off all the things you cite but not right away, just like you say you will have freedom of immigration but not right away because other things need to happen first, well he says you can’t take away affirmative action until we fix some other problems first.

    Well so what do you have against that type of argument?

    Now you take my statement about anti-Mexican hatred in your heart, notie the words EVEN IF do they mean anything to you? I don’t know what is in your heart and I said, I am willing to give you the nenefit of the doubt. But you are acting like I accused you! Now IF you are a racist you are certainly not the first one to use “some of my best friends are…” as an excuse, but Im not saying you are.

    After all some of my best friends are white and they cant help being assholes sometimes, they were just raiosed that way and usually its just called being ignorant.

    Im a half breed mutt myself so what racism do you think I can have? What am I gonna kill myself, maybe just knock myself out. I know I’ll pay myself reparations. Fuck all that.

    Yeah there’s self hating hispanics. Just like tehre’s selghating gays like that preacher who got busted recently with a gay prostitute. So what?

    But hey if you call Mexicans “invading hordes” I guess that means you are an individualist and have no ethnic prejudice, well of course why would anyone suspect different?

    And who the fuck cares if some Mexicans are racist? Of course there are. I guess then we can’t allow immigrants from Europe or Asia or anuwhere else because some of them are racist too. I wonder what you will do about all the racist Indians? Maybe just not allow any Indians in teh country off the Rez because some are racists huh? Or maybe you can have inner city reservations for blacks, ghettoes for real in the original sense enforced by law like they had for Jews in Europe, but only until you get rid of the welfare state and legalize drugs or maybe its ok if states do it so long as its not federal.

    Oh yeah I love how you “debunked” my view on abortion yah right!

    Lets see, you said some swill about being forced out of an airplane right? Well guess what, there was a person getting on the plane and so the plane company entered a contract to get them safely to the ground. It may have been an explicit or implicit contract.

    So when did a woman agree to carry a baby for nine months, every time she has sex? Birth control does not work 100% of the time you know, shit ahppens or maybe you don’t know, not really my bsiness but trust me on that one.

    What if she did not agree? I gues we are now going to put the burden of proof on women that they did not agree huh?

    But I guess it’s OK to force a woman into indentured servitude against her consent for 9 moonths, or 19 years, or whatever. It’s a non definitional issue. My ass.

    I guess that’s OK if its state and not federal? The state owns the women in the state and makes them baby factories whether they like it or not. Yeah, thats real libertarian for you!

    You debunked me? Hah! There;s only two libertarians perspectives on abortion: either the fetus is a part of teh woman and she can remove it like a cuticle or an ingrown hair. Or it is a guest, and can be evicted at any time period if it is not wanted.

    Now some libertarians are against infanticide but that is only because we live in a rich country and there are enough people who want to adopt or other resources to take the kid off your hands if you don’t want to keep raising him or her. But in a lot of cultures that was not the case so infanticide was OK! But maybe if you outlaw abortions that will no longer be teh case espcially if you also get rod of the welfare state.

    I guess then it’s definitely 19 years of indentured servitude in your would.

    Yeah, let;s welcome the border fascists, gay bashers and collective mandatory pregnancy central planners, that wil be a great “libertarian” party what a joke! Not important issues huh? What a crock of shit.

  91. Eric Dondero Says:

    LOL, are you serious Knapp?

    NewsMax “Republican.” Holy shit. That’s the first time I’ve ever heard NewsMax being called a “Republican site.”

    They’re more like far right quasi-conspiratorialist John Bircher, Ross Perot-ish populist libertarian. They are absolutely NOT Republican.

    You want Republican go to HumanEvents.com or NationalReview.com or even to a lesser extent WorldNetDaily.com

    But certainly NOT NewsMax.

  92. Eric Dondero Says:

    Whew! Andy. Perhaps you’re not so bad after all. Thank you for that response on my Netherlands question.

    It tells me that our disagreements are not over philosophy or the threat of Islamo-Fascism, but merely over tactics and degrees of the threat that we face from Islamo-Fascism.

    So, I take it that if a similar instance were to occur here in the US, say Hamtramac or Dearborn, Michigan, or Minneapolis, Minnesota, you would take the same stance as a “City Councilman”?

    That’s a positive. There’s some hope for you yet.

    I’ll be sure to report back to Jake to let him know you’re not all that bad, as I previouosly thought.

  93. Eric Dondero Says:

    Point is fellows, Wayne Root is not yet running an active campaign for President. He’s just testing the waters. He’s told his supporters expressly NOT to get any media attention for him and his potential campaign until perhaps later in the Spring. He has serious business commitments. And I’m sure that you all can appreciate that the Nation’s Number One or Number Two Sports Prognosticator is a little busy at the moment with a tiny little thing called the Super Bowl.

    Wayne Root is not actively seeking media. Yet the media is already actively seeking him.

    Have you all taken the Wayne Root Media Tour yet at www.mainstreamlibertarian.com?

    Can you tell me ever in the past LP has a potential Presidential candidate attracted so much media attention: Fox News, Fox Sports, CNN, CSNBC, ABC Sports, ESPN, NBC, and even HBO?

    Yeah, they’ve attracted scattered attention:

    David Bergland made ABC’s Nightline. So did Andre Marrou, I believe?

    Harry Browne had a couple appearances on CNN.

    Ed Clark got a news report on PBS, ABC News and NBC.

    Ron Paul got in the NY Times, and was on PBS.

    But none of them have ever received the culmulitive amount of media that Wayne Root has in the past.

    Maybe you all disagree with me here, but I think what the Libertarian Party desperately needs more than anything is media attention. And that’s major media attention, not just on-line stuff. And I’m talking TV mostly.

    And Wayne has a magnificent TV presence. He lights up the screen. He’s far better on TV than any other previous LP candidate.

    He sent me a DVD of all his TV appearances, (I believe you can access it from his website at www.millionairerepublican.com). It was simply amazing.

    The guy is like Tony Roberts. Very motivational.

  94. undercover_anarchist Says:

    There are two worlds in which we dwell: The philosophical and the practical.

    Philosophically, I’m an anarchist.

    But I don’t take my religion all that seriously.

    To me, “undercover_anarchist” sounds like a cool name. I’m more of the John Stuart Mill school of thought on practical matters.

    Should I just change it to “pro_growth_liberal”? Would that make people happy?

    Nat Turner, you are my brother from another mother.

  95. Kn@ppster Says:

    Quoth Eric Dondero:

    “LOL, are you serious Knapp?

    “NewsMax ‘Republican.’ Holy shit. That’s the first time I’ve ever heard NewsMax being called a ‘Republican site.’”

    I think it’s you who needs to examine his own seriousness.

    NewsMax was founded by Republican “journalist” Christopher Ruddy.

    NewMax was funded by Republican money man Richard Mellon Scaife.

    NewsMax was advised by Republican ex-Secretary of State Alexander Haig.

    NewssMax subsequently absorbed/incorporated Republican columnist Michael Reagan’s Reagan Monitor.

    According to Nielsen circa last November, NewsMax is the #2 site for “concentration of Republicans” in its audience, coming in only below RushLimbaugh.Com.

    Keep in mind, however, that I specified “DISGRUNTLED Republican territory,” not just a Republican affiliation.

    Both NewsMax and WorldNetDaily are conservative sites which sometimes take issue with the GOP because it’s not “conservative” enough. The difference between them is mainly that WorldNetDaily occasionally publishes libertarian authors (such as Vox Day), and accepts guest columns from libertarians like Steve Kubby. NewsMax, on the other hand, is exactly the kind of site that would try to palm Wayne Root off on its gullible readers as a “libertarian.”

    Tom KNapp

  96. Timothy West Says:

    2-4-6-8 organize to smash the state!

    yeah, thats worked out so well.

  97. Kn@ppster Says:

    Tim,

    I suspect that I can name as many “2-4-6-8, organize to smash the state” candidates or issues pushers who have won their elections, etc., as you can “pragmatists” who have. As a matter of fact, probably more. This “moderate Libertarian” crap hasn’t sold any better than the crap in the “99 44/100 Percent Pure” package.

    The platform, the pledge, etc. are not unimportant, but they’re side issues to what you’re interested in accomplishing. The real issue is the inability or unwillingness to accomplish the mechanical tasks of politicking (electoral or otherwise).

    Tom Knapp

  98. Trent Hill Says:

    “who cares really if some straight white males get discriminated against for a change?”

    Replace that “white male” stuff with “black female” or “hispanic boy” or “Asian Transexual”. Its all racist and bigoted.

  99. Brian S Says:

    I thought Newsmax was some uber-right-wing website, which is why I as a Libertarian haven’t visited it for a while. For some reason I had the impression that it was like World News Daily, which was a pretty good site when Clinton was president, but that drank the Kool-aid the day Bush was elected.

  100. Joe Says:

    I noticed a few days ago an article on NewsMax that was critical of New York governor George Pataki – now that he is safely out of office. I remember in 2002 their running puff pieces on how wonderful he was. I remember because we tried to get them to cover our pro-rkba candidate who they continued to ignore.

  101. Timothy West Says:

    The real issue is the inability or unwillingness to accomplish the mechanical tasks of politicking (electoral or otherwise).

    which the pledge makes a total joke of. Why run for office as a libertarian? If you ever win, you have to pledge to uphold the oath of your office you won.

    It’s ALL important, and each part subtracts from the ability of the LP to be a factor. No magic bullets. Lots of little problems.

  102. George Whitfield Says:

    Here are two new articles about our Libertarian hero Ron Paul:

    Rep. Ron Paul: Running to Win in 2008
    Dave Eberhart
    Wednesday, Jan. 31, 2007
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/1/30/151713.shtml?s=lh
    and
    Inflation: The Hidden Cost of War by Rep. Ron Paul, Jan. 30, 2007
    http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=10423

    I have mailed another contribution to the Ron Paul Exploratory Committee and encourage all libertarians to chip in. See: http://www.ronpaul.org

  103. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:
    January 30th, 2007 at 9:58 am
    Whew! Andy. Perhaps you’re not so bad after all. Thank you for that response on my Netherlands question.

    It tells me that our disagreements are not over philosophy or the threat of Islamo-Fascism, but merely over tactics and degrees of the threat that we face from Islamo-Fascism.”

    You don’t seem to get it. I would anwser the same way if any group engaged in such tactics.

    For example, I was in Colorado Springs a couple of years ago. I remember hearing about a local controversy in regaurds to porn shops. There were (are assuming that they are still there) a few porn shops in town and a “conservative Christian” group called Focus On The Family was tying to get them shut down. I was told that they had gotten the city council to pass a law that made it illegal to have doors on the booths where people watch movies (ie-”jack off booths”). My take is that Focus On The Family has every right to speak out against porn shops, but they do NOT have the right to use government to force their views on others. Porn shops engage in a voluntary business and even though some may deem them “politically incorrect” they’ve got every right to exsist. If a person doesn’t like porn shops there’s a simple solution, don’t go in them, and persuade others not to go in them, but this does NOT give them the right to use force to shut them down or to regulate them. If Focus On The Family threatened violence againt the porn shops – as the Muslims in the example that you gave apparently threatened – they should be defended against by force. Frankly, if they get government to use violence or the threat of violence against them (which is what government really does) they should still be responded to by force because at that point the government is engaging in tyranny, of course as we all know that is easier said than done.

    My disagreements with you are certainly philosophical. I do not believe in wars of aggression. I don’t believe that the US government should go around the world looking for fights. I support a foreign policy of non-intervention and peace. I believe that all US military forces should be brought home and that all foreign aid should be cut off and that all “entangling alliances” should be ended. I do not believe in what you call “pre-emptive strikes”, especially when they are based on the testimony of known liars (ie-the Bush administration). I have spent a lot of time studying 9/11 ever since it happened and I believe that there is a mountain of evidence that points to it being an inside job that was carried out by factions within the US government, high level members of the Bush administration, including “Dubya” himself. I believe that 9/11 was carried out to bring in the current phase of the “New World Order” – it was the pretext for wars of aggression in the Middle East and escalating the police state domestically. Unlike you, I do not have any faith in the Republican Party. Sure, there exsists a tiny handful of Republicans who are good to decent (like Ron Paul), but for the most part the Republican Party is a party of big government fascism. Most of the Republicans that you wave around as being “libertarians” or “libertarian leaning” are either not even remotely libertarian or are not as libertarian as you make them out to be. The Republican Party is every bit as corrupt as the Democrats (and note that there a few Democrats who are less toxic than others) and in fact, at the top of the food chain the Democrats and Republicans are controlled by the same corrupt forces. Both parties work together to rob us of our liberty. Their leaders are control freaks and their followers are sheep. Also, unlike you I do not have an irrational hatred of Muslims. Does this mean that I agree with Muslim extremists or “Islamofascists” as you call them? No, as I’ve said before I do not agree with any religious extremists of any faith. However, just because I disagree with certain religious extremists and/or other governments it does not mean that I agree with picking fights with them. The US government has been interfering in Middle Eastern affairs for decades so it should be