=Besides in Nashville 2004, Salt Lake City 2005? Also there was talk in the forums some years ago about establishing a CPNV that Bill Shearer detailed in a critical letter of Reed Heustis.

I don’t know what this business about “eastern states.”

=I recall that the disaffiliation efforts were the loudest in the eastern state parties. Especially with yours, Maryland, Georgia, Michigan, Ohio, Missouri, & Mississippi, plus a few others that didn’t show up for Tampa.
Massachusetts wasn’t there and the majority of delegates from Florida voted for disaffiliation.

=If you wanted the Nevada Party gone, then you’re saying you don’t want people or a party with Chris’s mindset in the CP.

Just like how the moderators of TAV didn’t want Mr. Fluarty there speaking up for the Party.

=That’s how you interpret it.

If there was any censuring to be done, it seems to me like it should have come from his own state party, which apparently they had no intention of doing.

=Probably because the IAP was getting sick and tired of putting up with the nonsense coming from the eastern parties, especially since there have been previous efforts to disaffiliate Nevada, and the issue wasn’t abortion then.

Disaffiliation was our way of saying that we just did not want to be associated any longer with a state party that elected leaders and nominated candidates that would allow abortion in the cases of rape and incest, which, you and I agree, was are right to do.

=The sooner you guys were gone, the sooner we could get back to work.

As I see it, the difference is that a vote by me to “censure” Christopher Hansens does sound like an effort to dictate the internal affairs of another state party. If there was any censuring to be done, it seems to me like it should have come from his own state party, which apparently they had no intention of doing. Disaffiliation was our way of saying that we just did not want to be associated any longer with a state party that elected leaders and nominated candidates that would allow abortion in the cases of rape and incest, which, you and I agree, was are right to do. Now, I possibly could be persuaded otherwise if somebody explained to me exactly what “censure” is, but the fact remains that I was never asked to vote on whether or not to censure Christopher Hansens, just on whether or not to disaffiliate IAP Nevada and later on whether or not to disaffiliate ourselves. I don’t see what saying “Christopher Hansen should be censured” acoomplishes at this point.

=Utter BS.

I welcome a free and open exchange of ideas and opinions. To me, none of this is really about actions. As far as I know Christopher never aborted any babies. For me it was about words and beliefs, all that we in the political realm have to work with.

=You just contredicted yourself there, you welcome a free and open exchange of ideas, yet it was ‘about words and beliefs’.

Jim responded to me that he too cared what was on ” Christopher’s heart and mind, but . . . ” left me the impression that if Christopher just minded his tongue he hoped that it might just blow over. My concern was not to silence Christopher Hansen, but to make sure that I was in a party that would elect people to public office that would allow some babies to be aborted.

=Basically your concern was to rid the party of a active state affiliate that had a state chairman who favored exceptions because of his religious beliefs, and whose family, which ran the state party, held the same beliefs too.

=yet the same people would still work to overturn Roe v. Wade, while the “Pro-Life GOP’ers and Democrats” do not. Such people are realistic in the abortion approach.

As far as censure is concerned, I’m not sure what that means. I was asked twice to vote on this issue. The first time: Nevada in or out? The second time after Nevada was allowed to remain: us, in or out. Both times, I voted according to what I thought was right.

=And that’s your right. In fact Joe I actually agree with your state party disaffiliating from the CP since we now can organize a state affiliate there that’s practical minded.

I never had an opportunity to vote on censuring Christopher Hansen, nor am I sure that would have been appropriate to do so.

=Yet you voted to kick his state party (along with him), out, OK I can see the difference.
NOT!

I was present at a Constitution Party of Pennsylvania meeting during which Jim Clymer told the members publicly that the Constitution Party would probably survive if Christopher Hansen kept his mouth shut, but if he mouthed off again he (Jim) was worried that the party would schism. [That is not a direct quote, but my best recollection of remarks made many months ago.] Well, Jim was right. After that, Christopher publicly reiterated that he would allow abortions in the case of rape and incest, and several state parties disaffiliated when the national party refrained from disaffiliating IAP Nevada. After his remarks, I approached Jim privately and told him that I did not care that Christopher was speaking his mind. It was never my intention in voting to disaffiliate IAP Nevada to silence state party leaders out of fear that their words would be used against their state parties. I welcome a free and open exchange of ideas and opinions. To me, none of this is really about actions. As far as I know Christopher never aborted any babies. For me it was about words and beliefs, all that we in the political realm have to work with. Jim responded to me that he too cared what was on ” Christopher’s heart and mind, but . . . ” left me the impression that if Christopher just minded his tongue he hoped that it might just blow over. My concern was not to silence Christopher Hansen, but to make sure that I was in a party that would elect people to public office that would allow some babies to be aborted.

As far as censure is concerned, I’m not sure what that means. I was asked twice to vote on this issue. The first time: Nevada in or out? The second time after Nevada was allowed to remain: us, in or out. Both times, I voted according to what I thought was right. I never had an opportunity to vote on censuring Christopher Hansen, nor am I sure that would have been appropriate to do so.

I agree that Hansen should’ve been censured (up to removal) for publicly misrepresenting the party’s platform, but I don’t agree that people should be discluded from the party for their beliefs or thoughts. I consider that to be an Orwellian, thought-police approach.

Only God knows men’s hearts, and He will punish or reward them for what is therein, but since we do not know men’s hearts, we should only punish men for behaviour. What men do in their minds is only theirs and God’s business, or God would’ve given us the ability to read one another’s minds. Only what men do in this world, especially if it harms others, is our business.

Do you want to talk about LDS beliefs and doctrine via personal email? I bet I can prove you wrong on some of your views.

=Because by disaffiliating them, you cut them off from funding resources, etc, from the national Party. And the reason why is simply because of the personal views of one or two of their state leaders that do not conform to the CP Platform. Even through article 3 of the by-laws says the platform(or constitution) or bylaws cannot dictate the affairs of any state affiliate.

=So Nevada has the right to be in the CP and still have “exceptionists” as their state officers, just like your party has the right to disaffiliate from the national on its own. Fair and simple.

You say “on those grounds.” My question is, on what grounds DO you think a state party should be disaffiliated.

=Personally I like the current rules on state party disaffiliation, which was passed at Tampa after the Nevada vote.

=Also note that Nevada never adopted a “exceptionist” position on abortion.

“Under your definition, wouldn’t any effort to disaffiliate a state party amount to “dictating” how that state party runs itself, which is prohibited?”

=You proved a point I was making! Isn’t that exactely what your state party and others tried to do by forcing Nevada to ‘conform’ to the Platform?
Never mind that the Nevada Party passed resolutions saying it was in conformity with the CP platform on abortion.

=And personally we were never trying to kick you guys out at all, you left on your own. As you have the right to.

All you did is repeat yourself, not answer the question.

How is disaffiliating a state party “dictating” how they should run themselves? They would still be free to run themselves however they want.

You say “on those grounds.” My question is, on what grounds DO you think a state party should be disaffiliated. Under your definition, wouldn’t any effort to disaffiliate a state party amount to “dictating” how that state party runs itself, which is prohibited?

I left the Church after many years of soul searching investigation and for many reasons but all directed at the same thing. The changing of Temple ordinances, the hiding of the Prophet Benson’s inability to recognize people including his grandson for months prior to his death. This was done while church leaders claimed he was still functioning as the Prophet. The many attempts by church leaders to cover up things that were done against church policy. Including the duping of church leaders and the Prophet by con artist with supposedly authentic documents several years ago. I capped it all of with the Mountain Meadows Massacre and several other things back thru history that convinced me that there was never any foundation to believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet. You don’t really want to even get into what I know about Joseph Smith. Keep in mind that I don’t accept what someone says, I have to go and find out for myself. Nor the stealing of the ordinances from the Masons. It is amazing how exactly similar the Masonic ordinances are to the temple ordinances are. I now believe the Masonic organization has many good Christian people at the lower levels but is totally satanic at the upper degrees above 30. There is clear evidence that the Pearl of Great Price was a fraud. The scrolls have been found or did you not know that. They are burial records, oh the church fired a BYU Professor for stating this. There is no evidence there was ever horses in the US before the coming of the spanish, there were certainly no elephants or many other animals spoken of by the book of Mormon. Do you want me to go on. I told you I spent 30 years in the church and did not leave lightly, I left after years of research, thousands of dollars spent traveling and investigating and much prayer and soul searching of my own. I am at peace with my decision.

Now lets get back to politics.

the national party shouldn’t disaffiliate a state party on those grounds, since it says the platform or bylaws doesn’t dictate how a state party should run itself. And you people advocated for disaffiliation on the grounds that Chris violated the Platform on Life with his personal views, when the platform or the bylaws cannot confer upon a state party’s business.

It’s right there.