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	<title>Comments on: NH Libertarians are split on war in Iraq</title>
	<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: catholicresistence</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164950</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164950</guid>
					<description>For anyone willing to listen:

2314 &quot;Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation.&quot; A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.

2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations; it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.

2317 Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war: 

Insofar as men are sinners, the threat of war hangs over them and will so continue until Christ comes again; but insofar as they can vanquish sin by coming together in charity, violence itself will be vanquished and these words will be fulfilled: &quot;they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.&quot; 

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: 
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; 

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; 

- there must be serious prospects of success; 

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. 


These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the &quot;just war&quot; doctrine. 


The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

Also:

War
arms, 2314, 2316
arms race, 2315
duty to avoid, 2307-08
economic and social injustices and inequalities as causes of, 2317
just, 2309
obligation to resist unjust orders, 2313
peace and absence of, 2304
permanence of the moral law during armed conflict, 2312-13

Source:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For anyone willing to listen:</p>
	<p>2314 &#8220;Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation.&#8221; A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons &#8211; to commit such crimes.</p>
	<p>2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations; it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.</p>
	<p>2317 Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war:</p>
	<p>Insofar as men are sinners, the threat of war hangs over them and will so continue until Christ comes again; but insofar as they can vanquish sin by coming together in charity, violence itself will be vanquished and these words will be fulfilled: &#8220;they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.&#8221;</p>
	<p>2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: &#8211; the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;</p>
	<p> &#8211; all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;<br />
 &#8211; there must be serious prospects of success;<br />
 &#8211; the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.</p>
	<p>These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the &#8220;just war&#8221; doctrine.</p>
	<p>The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.</p>
	<p>Also:</p>
	<p>War<br />
arms, 2314, 2316<br />
arms race, 2315<br />
duty to avoid, 2307-08<br />
economic and social injustices and inequalities as causes of, 2317<br />
just, 2309<br />
obligation to resist unjust orders, 2313<br />
peace and absence of, 2304<br />
permanence of the moral law during armed conflict, 2312-13</p>
	<p>Source:</p>
	<p><a href='http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm' rel='nofollow'>http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm</a></p>
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		<title>by: catholicresistence</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164945</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164945</guid>
					<description>Many so-called Libertarians are really GOP in sheeps clothing. I applaud Lew Rockwell and Antiwar.com for outing this periodically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Many so-called Libertarians are really <span class="caps">GOP</span> in sheeps clothing. I applaud Lew Rockwell and Antiwar.com for outing this periodically.</p>
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		<title>by: Kn@ppster</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164338</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164338</guid>
					<description>George,

Have you &lt;em&gt;accepted&lt;/em&gt; the LPNH's nomination?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>George,</p>
	<p>Have you <em>accepted</em> the <span class="caps">LPNH</span>&#8217;s nomination?</p>
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		<title>by: George Phillies</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164310</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164310</guid>
					<description>The LPNH did indeed nominate
   for President--George Phillies
   for Vice President--Karen Kwiatkowski

The reference to ballot status is imprecise.  In New Hampshire, you nominate by petition, with each voter signing a separate nominating paper listing up to all the candidates they have in their district.  The requirement for President is 3000 signatures, with a geographic distibution requirement by Congressional District.  If enough signatures are collected, the candidates go on the November 2008 ballot.  Party status is gained by getting enough of the vote for Governor or Senator, and cannot affect the 2008 campaign, for which one runs as D, R, or Independent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The <span class="caps">LPNH</span> did indeed nominate</p>
	<p>   for President&#8212;George Phillies<br />
   for Vice President&#8212;Karen Kwiatkowski</p>
	<p>The reference to ballot status is imprecise.  In New Hampshire, you nominate by petition, with each voter signing a separate nominating paper listing up to all the candidates they have in their district.  The requirement for President is 3000 signatures, with a geographic distibution requirement by Congressional District.  If enough signatures are collected, the candidates go on the November 2008 ballot.  Party status is gained by getting enough of the vote for Governor or Senator, and cannot affect the 2008 campaign, for which one runs as D, R, or Independent.</p>
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		<title>by: globalist_elitist</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164142</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 02:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164142</guid>
					<description>Dondero - I was referring more to the fact that they nominated several Republicans - who are NOT &quot;Pro-Choice, Pro-Drug Legalization, Pro-Gambling, Pro-Prostitution&quot; - then I was of their willingness to support candidates who support/supported the war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dondero &#8211; I was referring more to the fact that they nominated several Republicans &#8211; who are <span class="caps">NOT </span>&#8220;Pro-Choice, Pro-Drug Legalization, Pro-Gambling, Pro-Prostitution&#8221; &#8211; then I was of their willingness to support candidates who support/supported the war.</p>
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		<title>by: matt</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164137</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 02:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164137</guid>
					<description>It's true that foreign policy isn't the only important issue, but like gun control, one's stand on that issue speaks volumes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s true that foreign policy isn&#8217;t the only important issue, but like gun control, one&#8217;s stand on that issue speaks volumes.</p>
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		<title>by: Trent Hill</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164104</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164104</guid>
					<description>OH. And Dondero, to answer your question--

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070405/NEWS01/204050392
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070412/OPINION02/70412004/-1/opinion

It appears she is a state rep who tried to avoid a speeding ticket by claiming protection under Article 21, about how a representatibe cannot be detained on the way to legal proceedings. She was on her way to the inauguration of the governor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OH. And Dondero, to answer your question&#8212;<br />
<a href='http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070405/NEWS01/204050392' rel='nofollow'>http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070405/NEWS01/204050392</a><br />
<a href='http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070412/OPINION02/70412004/-1/opinion' rel='nofollow'>http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070412/OPINION02/70412004/-1/opinion</a></p>
	<p>It appears she is a state rep who tried to avoid a speeding ticket by claiming protection under Article 21, about how a representatibe cannot be detained on the way to legal proceedings. She was on her way to the inauguration of the governor.</p>
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		<title>by: Trent Hill</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164099</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164099</guid>
					<description>I actually agree with Eric Dondero for once.
More than just foreign policy matters.

and I have the same question as Austin,
If Kubby or someone else secures the LP nomination...will NH still give their nomination to Phillies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I actually agree with Eric Dondero for once.<br />
More than just foreign policy matters.</p>
	<p>and I have the same question as Austin,<br />
If Kubby or someone else secures the LP nomination&#8230;will NH still give their nomination to Phillies?</p>
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		<title>by: Eric Dondero</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164077</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164077</guid>
					<description>Okay, there's a huge mysterious question about this NH LP Convention and their endorsements.

As far as I know the Libertarian Party currently does not have a single sitting State Legislature in New Hampshire or any other state.

So who is this Bea F. woman?  

I assume she is a Republican legislator.  Does this now mean that the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire is actively supporting a Republican for Governor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Okay, there&#8217;s a huge mysterious question about this <span class="caps">NH LP </span>Convention and their endorsements.</p>
	<p>As far as I know the Libertarian Party currently does not have a single sitting State Legislature in New Hampshire or any other state.</p>
	<p>So who is this Bea F. woman?</p>
	<p>I assume she is a Republican legislator.  Does this now mean that the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire is actively supporting a Republican for Governor?</p>
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		<title>by: Eric Dondero</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164076</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164076</guid>
					<description>How can Libertarians in New Hampshire be regarded as simply &quot;Right-wing Republicans,&quot; when they are Pro-Choice, Pro-Drug Legalization, Pro-Gambling, Pro-Prostitution?

Is everything based simply on one's views on foreign policy?  Do civil liberties issues no longer count for anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How can Libertarians in New Hampshire be regarded as simply &#8220;Right-wing Republicans,&#8221; when they are Pro-Choice, Pro-Drug Legalization, Pro-Gambling, Pro-Prostitution?</p>
	<p>Is everything based simply on one&#8217;s views on foreign policy?  Do civil liberties issues no longer count for anything?</p>
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		<title>by: Austin Cassidy</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164049</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164049</guid>
					<description>So the NH LP has nominated Phillies and he will be on the LP line if the party gets ballot status?  Is that correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So the <span class="caps">NH LP</span> has nominated Phillies and he will be on the LP line if the party gets ballot status?  Is that correct?</p>
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		<title>by: infojunkie</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164042</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164042</guid>
					<description>Roscoe: it's about self-defense. It's all about self-defense. How close does the guy's fist have to be to your nose before you know he's gonna hit you? It's taken on a detailed case-by-case basis. Iraq was not an imminent threat to the U.S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roscoe: it&#8217;s about self-defense. It&#8217;s all about self-defense. How close does the guy&#8217;s fist have to be to your nose before you know he&#8217;s gonna hit you? It&#8217;s taken on a detailed case-by-case basis. Iraq was not an imminent threat to the U.S.</p>
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		<title>by: Roscoe</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164017</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-164017</guid>
					<description>What the heck is the LP position on war?  I'm guessing it is still &quot;If attacked the U.S. will fight back.&quot;  What if the attacking armada is 30 miles out to sea?  Or a missile is incoming, probably projected to hit the U.S. but still 400 miles away?  Or if Dictator X has ramped up production of Anthrax and made continual threats to wipe out the U.S.?   Is there a point were an imminent threat permits unilateral action or not?  [Its obvious now that Iraq was not an imminent threat.]    O.K., so a mistake (deliberate or not) was made and we find out - should the U.S. rectify that mistake or say, whoops, we are out of here?  Or try to keep the peace and rebuild the damage?  And at what point can the U.S. say, &quot;We can't keep the peace because you morons want to kill it each so we are out of here?&quot;   All legitimate questions that real voters want answers too, not mindless posturing by politicians of any stripe (including ours).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What the heck is the LP position on war?  I&#8217;m guessing it is still &#8220;If attacked the U.S. will fight back.&#8221;  What if the attacking armada is 30 miles out to sea?  Or a missile is incoming, probably projected to hit the U.S. but still 400 miles away?  Or if Dictator X has ramped up production of Anthrax and made continual threats to wipe out the U.S.?   Is there a point were an imminent threat permits unilateral action or not?  [Its obvious now that Iraq was not an imminent threat.]    O.K., so a mistake (deliberate or not) was made and we find out &#8211; should the U.S. rectify that mistake or say, whoops, we are out of here?  Or try to keep the peace and rebuild the damage?  And at what point can the U.S. say, &#8220;We can&#8217;t keep the peace because you morons want to kill it each so we are out of here?&#8221;   All legitimate questions that real voters want answers too, not mindless posturing by politicians of any stripe (including ours).</p>
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		<title>by: George Phillies</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-163971</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-163971</guid>
					<description>Buried in this discussion, the LPNH nominated candidates for 2008, so that they can start petitioning.  The petitions will place people on the November General Elections Ballot.  To quote from the article:

For governor, the party overwhelmingly supported Nashua state Rep. Bea Franceoeur. For Senate, party members chose Ken Blevens of Bow. Bob Kingsbury of Laconia ran unopposed to be the party nominee for the First Congressional seat while Chester Lapointe of Swanzey beat Morey Straus of Concord in the race for the second district. For executive council, the convention chose Dan Belforti for District 3. 

For president: Massachusetts physicist George Phillies was favored over Colorado native Christine Smith ... For vice president, the party nominated retired U.S. Army Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, a noted critic of the Iraq War, instead of Smith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Buried in this discussion, the <span class="caps">LPNH</span> nominated candidates for 2008, so that they can start petitioning.  The petitions will place people on the November General Elections Ballot.  To quote from the article:</p>
	<p>For governor, the party overwhelmingly supported Nashua state Rep. Bea Franceoeur. For Senate, party members chose Ken Blevens of Bow. Bob Kingsbury of Laconia ran unopposed to be the party nominee for the First Congressional seat while Chester Lapointe of Swanzey beat Morey Straus of Concord in the race for the second district. For executive council, the convention chose Dan Belforti for District 3.</p>
	<p>For president: Massachusetts physicist George Phillies was favored over Colorado native Christine Smith &#8230; For vice president, the party nominated retired U.S. Army Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, a noted critic of the Iraq War, instead of Smith.</p>
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		<title>by: Trent Hill</title>
		<link>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-163960</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/04/16/nh-libertarians-are-split-on-war-in-iraq/#comment-163960</guid>
					<description>Well, i'll say this. I can't see a libertarian arguement in favor of the war either. But I can see someone who considers themselves libertarian leaning, or small government advocating this war. I still think it is dumb,and incorrect, but it's understandable. Especially considering the lack of information on the war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, i&#8217;ll say this. I can&#8217;t see a libertarian arguement in favor of the war either. But I can see someone who considers themselves libertarian leaning, or small government advocating this war. I still think it is dumb,and incorrect, but it&#8217;s understandable. Especially considering the lack of information on the war.</p>
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