Roundup of Calls For LP Unity (and Divorce)

Tom Knapp declares that the Barr/Root victory in Denver “was as accurate a reflection of the desires of the party’s membership as our processes were able to produce”, and says the ticket deserves a clean slate and to be supported until and unless it gives reason not to be. Steve Kubby is making the same case in some emails to fellow candidates and LP leaders. I chime in to agree that our ticket deserves a clean slate but not a blank check, and that federalism is an excellent means but is not our end. In demanding repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act I argue that we should treat the U.S. Constitution as a sword with which to divide and conquer the nanny state, rather than a shield that protects 50 nanny states from condemnation by the LPUS. The Outright Libertarians blog posts a video clip of Barr promising to work to repeal DOMA. (The video above was inspired by a long conversation I recently had with Angela Keaton.)

Jerome Tuccille, the 1974 LPNY candidate for governor, is a radical libertarian who supports Barr because “maintaining ideological purity is the job of philosophers and hard-core factions, while achieving political impact on selected issues is the job of politicians and political parties”.

Susan Hogarth reportedly writes on LPradicals that the Barr-Root ticket “will be a good test case for the argument that if the LP just sounds like the Better Republican Party, it will become a larger and more vibrant political organization. Since they have the perfect candidates to test this theory, let us support the Party as much as possible this election season to give it a fair test.” (No, Susan, the theory is that the LP will be stronger if its platform and ticket emphasize the direction we libertarians agree on, rather than the utopian destination that some libertarians want to dictate to the rest of us. This ticket will only be a fair test of that theory to the extent that its top half speaks as forcefully for the centrist libertarian positions of our decidedly un-Republican platform as I know the bottom half will.)

Brad Spangler wants the LP to switch its branding from “libertarian” to Cato-style “market liberal”. Roderick Long explains that it’s good for radicals to leave the LP, but it’s also good to have radicals to remain in the LP and fight for it. This was prompted by a long but interesting discussion from which some Less Antman comments are required reading. He says perceptively that “radical minarchists” (like David Nolan?) are “just anarchists unable to admit that a government that doesn’t aggress, doesn’t tax,and allows secession isn’t a government as most market anarchists define it”. He also says: “I don’t hate the state any more than I hate unicorns. There are only people: government is a word people use to legitimize aggression, and if we remove the legitimacy from acts of aggression, our job is basically done. The rest is crime control.”

A female blogger posts a Dear John letter to the LP, and Classically Liberal posts an obit entitled Libertarian Party 1972-2008. “CLS” is seriously fact-challenged, since 1) the LP was founded in 1971 not 1972; 2) no “deal” was required to get Root voters to choose Barr over Ruwart; 3) Root hadn’t “sworn he would never take the vice-presidential” spot; 4) Stephen Gordon didn’t start TPW, he bought it; 5) any glance at the Denver speakers lineup (David Nolan, Barry Hess, Walter Block, Anthony Gregory three times, etc.) will tell you that Barr didn’t control it; etc. His comments on the Platform are indicative of his perceptiveness, since in fact the Platform did not change its position on abortion or immigration, it does not (and will never) mention “states’ rights”, and it retained its specificity on gay rights even as the overall Platform was made much more compact.

Brian Miller digs up some positions of Christine Smith circa late 2006 that might make those 6 delegates who voted for her think twice about following her out of the LP:

  • “Decrease military budget by ending unnecessary foreign interventions and waste, with some of that money applied toward immediate overhaul of the American education system—education becoming one of the top priorities of the nation, as well as social welfare-provision of basic necessities to our people.”

  • “Recognized and respected business leaders of our nation selected to negotiate/oversee foreign trade polices and treaties.”

  • “Universal healthcare with freedom of choice; socialized medicine for all American citizens.”

  • “People would have choice whether to purchase private insurance or government-funded/affordable insurance and other such necessities. [...] A blend of socialism and capitalism to maintain the free market economy in most areas of our lives giving us the ingenuity of creative endeavors and achievements and the rewards for those who produce and create, while simultaneously providing for all the basic necessities of life such as food, housing, healthcare, education, and areas such as water, electricity, etc.”

45 Responses to “Roundup of Calls For LP Unity (and Divorce)”

  1. Jonathan Says:

    Jerome Tuccille, the 1974 LPNY candidate for governor, is a radical libertarian who supports Barr because “maintaining ideological purity is the job of philosophers and hard-core factions, while achieving political impact on selected issues is the job of politicians and political parties”.

    That is so good, How true !

  2. Brad F Says:

    I agree with Tuccille 100%,

    Just as the Rs and Ds, our party has two factions. The purists, and the pragmatists.

    Myself, I’m a radical purist who is willing to settle for a pragmatist because the journey in the right direction requires one step after another.

  3. Ghoststrider Says:

    I totally agree with Tuccille. This is the goal of the LP, to win elections and votes and swing politics towards a relatively libertarian path; the party gets the door open, and then the philosophers swarm through, convincing the people to adopt a radical libertarian path.

    That some people mix up the party with the philosophers is just sad.

  4. disinter Says:

    Forget ‘Party Unity’; Spreading the libertarian message is infinitely more important, Ron Paul tells supporters outside the Minnesota Republican cabal.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/021296.html

  5. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Jerome Tuccille was, indeed, the “Free Libertarian Party” candidate for governor of New York in 1974 (and the author of “It Usually Begins With Ayn Rand …”).

    The Tuccille who wrote the article you’re referencing on Barr, however, is not that Tuccille, but rather his son.

  6. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    “Forget ‘Party Unity’; Spreading the libertarian message is infinitely more important, Ron Paul tells supporters”

    “Libertarian message” as in “hey, everyone, let’s amend the Constitution to preserve marriage apartheid?” Like that there?

    Barr’s only been a Libertarian for a couple of years, but he’s already pulled far ahead of the Paulists in “spreading the libertarian message. What the Paulists are spreading is something very different … something more fitted to use in agriculture than in politics.

  7. disinter Says:

    Well isn’t this interesting:

    “a Grand Dragon of the KKK who spent his time trying to persuade storeowners not to rent out their storefronts to African-American churches.”

    Bob Barr was a Grand Dragon of the KKK?

    Wow.

  8. disinter Says:

    Source: http://www.lpmass.org/

  9. Jonathan Says:

    disinter you just can’t stand unity.
    All Disinter wants is to spread venom, create divisons, create stories and make up conspiracies. What a waste of a life you are.
    Here is a newsflash you parasite: Anyone who has been reading your poisenous posts knows what you are about, people are not stupid, especially Libertarians.

  10. Diamond Dave Says:

    no shit we all know Disinter is all about disintegration.

  11. disinter Says:

    I guess the fact that Barf was a Grand Dragon of the KKK got Jonathan’s panties in a wad…. So you support not only a career statist (CIA, drug warrior/prosecutor, pro patriot act, pro illegal war), but now you knowingly support a racist?

    Nevermind this guy is a fascist and a racist, he is the Libertarian nominee! Woo Hoo. Let’s all sing Kumbaya!

    Go Barf!

  12. disinter Says:

    More interesting stuff on Barf:

    http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/Barr/barr1.html

  13. Grace Says:

    My god, disinter. Do you actually think writing ‘Barf’ over and over again is even mildly amusing? And I can’t find anything on the KKK stuff written anywhere on the net aside from what was insinuated in that George Phillies article. Aside from the fact that obviously neither you or Phillies are trustworthy at this point, the idea that something as potentially crushing to a campaign like that would simply go unnoticed speaks to a level of naivety one can only expect from you.

  14. ElfNinosMom Says:

    Disinter, read the LPMass entry again. It does not say that Barr was in the KKK. It merely compared pagans having a standard bearer who is opposed to their religion, to African-Americans having a standard bearer from the KKK.

  15. disinter Says:

    ElfNinosMom – nice try, no cigar.

    Read it again:

    “whose Presidential candidate was, ten years ago, a Grand Dragon of the KKK who spent his time trying to persuade storeowners not to rent out their storefronts to African-American churches.”

    http://www.lpmass.org/

  16. disinter Says:

    More about Barf’s racism here:

    http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/Barr/barr1.html

  17. disinter Says:

    ElfNinosMom – you are correct, my apologies.

  18. GREEN DAD Says:

    wow these sites are full idiots like Disinter

  19. JT Says:

    Disinter, are you a moron? Don’t you think if Bob Barr had actually been a KKK leader 10 years ago, that would have come out long before now?! And to think that you say that other Libertarians are retards. Look in the mirror, buddy.

  20. Jonathan Says:

    yes he is a moron . You haven’t figured that out yet.

  21. Gene Trosper Says:

    Pagans need to get over themselves….and I speak as a pagan myself.

    Bob Barr doesn’t have to agree with the pagan belief system and neither do pagans have to agree with the Christian belief system.

    His actions regarding the Wiccan issue at Fort Hood is in the distant past. Has he stated recently since becoming a libertarian thathe wishes to pass laws that discriminate against Wiccans? No.

    Too many Libertarians want others to validate their lifestyle choices and attempt to do this by in-your-face tactics. I am reminded on a national convention in the 1990’s which was aired on CSPAN in which a delegate spoke and just HAD to introduce herself as a “lesbian polygamist”. I mean, WTF? So many of my fellow Libertarians want to persuade other Americans to join us, but then they shoot themselves in the foot with stunts like that and wind up alienating people.

    Freaking amateurs.

  22. Gene Trosper Says:

    Those who wish to divorce themselves for the LP can do so painlessly and peacefully without acting like a juvenile participant on the Jerry Springer Show.

    Feel free to go or feel free to stay…just stop with the needless dramatics.

  23. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Gene,

    You write:

    I am reminded on a national convention in the 1990’s which was aired on CSPAN in which a delegate spoke and just HAD to introduce herself as a “lesbian polygamist”. I mean, WTF?

    I believe that was the 1996 convention. I was watching on C-SPAN and remember thinking “hey, I HAVE found the right party!” I’m a polygamous lesbian trapped in a monogamous man’s body.

  24. Jonathan Says:

    Gene Trosper Says:

    May 31st, 2008 at 2:10 pm
    Those who wish to divorce themselves for the LP can do so painlessly and peacefully without acting like a juvenile participant on the Jerry Springer Show.

    Feel free to go or feel free to stay…just stop with the needless dramatics.

    I SECOND THE MOTION

  25. Clark Says:

    ...STFU, you phony, stoooooooooooopid ‘Libertarians’ for Barf..

    ...i pledge to $upport barf by $pringing for the strippers and whipped cream at his next inauguration..

    http://www.salem-news.com/articles/october172007/repub_scandals_10_17_07.php

    “Bob Barr is the Republican Congressman from Georgia who sponsored the anti-gay Defense of Marriage Act, saying “The flames of hedonism, the flames of narcissism, the flames of self-centered morality are licking at the very foundation of our society, the family unit.” He was married three times, and paid for his second wife’s abortion (she also suspected he was cheating on her). he failed to pay child support to the children of his first two wives and while married to his third and present wife and was photographed licking whipped cream off of strippers at his inaugural party.

  26. GREEN DAD Says:

    I can totally get behind a guy who licked wipped cream of a stripper’s breast, I did that when my wife got me a stripper for my surprise birthday party. nothing wrong with being a man.

    Clark you sound like a pussy

  27. DIAMOND DAVE Says:

    Clark doesn’t get what the Libertarian Party is all about. GO BARR GO

  28. disinter Says:

    Clark doesn’t get what the Libertarian Party is all about.

    The LP is about hypocrisy now?

  29. Clark Says:

    Press release=
    http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13830.45

    “Libertarian Party Dies

    In a tragic turn of events there was a mass suicide of LP Party members. In some strange mass psychological breakdown many LP members stuck their heads so far up their asses that they suffocated to death.

    A first-hand account of this tragedy was supplied by a shit-head named ‘Green Dad’ who was barely rescued by EMT’s.. ;o)

  30. Joseph Knight Says:

    What I’m advocating in New Mexico:

    LPNM & the Barrbie Campaign

    I can find nothing in the Nat’l or LPNM bylaws or the Election Code that compel us to certify the nat’l candidate (although I need to give the nat’l bylaws a closer reading).

    To nominate NOBODY, we need simply do nothing. We would have to sue the state. All we have to do is miss a deadline. THIS is what I’m in favor of. If Nat’l and/or the Barrbie Campaign want on, let them do it. They may have to run as an independent.

    My reasons:

    1. Barr is repugnant to the Libertarian ideal.

    2. If we run somebody and fall below the threshold, we have to petition again for ballot access. I’M not willing to risk our ballot status for this ticket.

    3. If we allow the conservative movement to take us over to exploit our ballot status, even once, it encourages others to do it in the future. I say we go limp. Give them an empty bag.

    4. I personally can not support a “Fairtax” candidate – it is simply not in my best interests to help popularize that scheme.

    We clearly can not endorse a candidate of another party. Running our own would probably be mechanically difficult at this point and even more divisive. I favor just leaving the slot blank, and let Barr run as an independent. I personally plan to campaign for NOTA.

    jk

  31. Joseph Knight Says:

    TYPO; We would NOT have to sue the state or anybody, just do nothing. Sorry ‘bout that.

  32. Ghoststrider Says:

    Referring to disinter and his post about Bob Barr being a KKK Grand Dragon:

    Note that the person who said that was George Phillies, another candidate for the nomination. The man is just pissed Bob Barr entered late and beat him. Anybody should take that statement with a hefty grain of salt.

  33. Ghoststrider Says:

    I also third Gene Trosper’s motion.

  34. Michael Seebeck Says:

    Weighing in with some convention thoughts from on the road on the way home after the convention and spending the rest of the week with family.

    • Barr had 2 years to mea culpa on Fort Hood. He didn’t do it. If he doesn’t understand the First Amendment, then WTF is he doing as our candidate??? Can any of the Barrflies explain that? Can Barr himself explain it, and will he (as was requested in an unanswered direct email sent to him by Lidia over three weeks ago!)?
    • Furthermore, why can’t Barr answer a question with a straight answer and why can’t he admit he was wrong about something? “I screwed up and I’m sorry” are the best words he could say regarding a whole host of things from his past. Haven’t heard them yet.
    • By the fourth ballot, a lot of Ruwart supporters who were MMJ people had to medicate, which took them off the floor for the voting.
    • Redpath doesn’t know how to run a business session and was lousy on the gavel. Moulton was far superior, and his loss of the VC to Jingozian doesn’t make much sense (nothing against Jingozian there).
    • OTOH, save some minor technical difficulties with the P.A., BetteRose Ryan and Michelle Poague and LPCO deserve great kudos for a great convention. But that’s what they tend to do, which is why the are first-rate assets for the LP.
    • There was a large contingent of people ready to leave the party after the Barr nomination. Steve Kubby running for VP (which Root only got by 3 votes) brought them back and may have saved the party. I am proud to have heavily worked the floor on that effort for Steve. Williams was heard saying that he wouldn’t endorse Kubby because he didn’t feel Steve was up to it, which of course is bullshit since he’d been doing it up to that point.
    • If this is another attempt to find a magic bullet, I have news for people: there are no magic bullets. And Barr and Root need to be able and willing to do the grassroots work the party needs as well rather than be just media-centric. That’s not saying don’t pursue the media opportunities, just don’t make that the ONLY thing.
    • Gravel was impressive, really working the delegates one-on-one and making a big good impression. The man is straightforward, honest, honorable, and we saw the real thing with him, not a mask or acting job.
    • Why was Ruwart seated with the NC delegation instead of the TX delegation?

    All in all, the convention was what conventions tend to be: exhilarating, stressful, fun, and irritating, all rolled into one.

    And the streak of “It rains when Seebecks go to convention” continues:

    2002, LPCO, Leadville, snow
    2003, LPCO, Colorado Springs, rain
    2005, LPCA, Los Angeles, rain
    2007, LPCA, San Ramon, rain
    2008, LPCA, San Diego, rain
    2008, LPUS, Denver, rain

    Which leaves one question unanswered: what are the advance rumors for LPUS 2010 locations?

  35. Michael Seebeck Says:

    BTW, the bold above was meant to be bullet points…

  36. Hugh Jass Says:

    “Press release=
    http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13830.45

    “Libertarian Party Dies

    In a tragic turn of events there was a mass suicide of LP Party members. In some strange mass psychological breakdown many LP members stuck their heads so far up their asses that they suffocated to death.

    A first-hand account of this tragedy was supplied by a shit-head named ‘Green Dad’ who was barely rescued by EMT’s.. ;o)”

    LOL.

  37. Hugh Jass Says:

    Also, to disinter, while I am a fellow anti-Barr libertarian, you mgith want to cut down on your borderline hackishness against Barr. Try to post anti-Barr stuff sparingly, and only if it actually has to do with the subject matter. Otherwise you just create a straw man for reformists to beat.

  38. FormerLPMember Says:

    If you are like most Americans who do not agree with the choices for president, Act Responsibly: Don’t Vote! http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcelroy/mcelroy37.html)

    Polarization
    “Viewing the nation as divided into two camps ignores the largest single group of Americans, namely, those who don’t vote at all. In the 2000 election only about 54 percent of eligible voters actually turned out to vote. In 2004, despite expensive get-out-the-vote campaigns by both ideological camps, the percentage who voted rose only a few points from the previous election. In fact, in 2004, an all-time record was set when more than 80 million eligible voters failed to vote; this number was far greater than the votes secured by either Bush or Kerry, by a substantial margin. In fact, no Republican or Democratic nominee has attracted as much as 30 percent of eligible voters since Ronald Reagan in 1984.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states#Polarization

  39. ralph Says:

    The lead candidate needs to follow the 2004 platform completely and be the ‘purest of the pure’ so he doesn’t end up stabbing our activists in the back, morons.

    The platform was designed for citizen action, not for candidates. The current platform is more for candidates and follows the original one proposed in 2000 by the program committee, which devised several proposals to meet the different needs. It far from a triumph of LRC. It’s their admission of defeat. The Program Committee also devided the strategy that brought in Barr AND Gravel. You can expect the LRC to continue to block bringing in ‘turn’s’ like them, as LRC is doing in several states, disrupting local meetings.

    Let’s remember that the so called pragmatists were the people trying to stop us from running candidates 28 years ago. And they still are: witness Gordon’s disastrous dumping of the Crickenberger plan. We should have over 1000 Libs in office now: where are they? They’ll stab Barr in the back the first chance they can, I suspect.

    Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and trying to re-write history, kids.

  40. ralph Says:

    The lead candidate needs to follow the 2004 platform completely and be the ‘purest of the pure’ so he doesn’t end up stabbing our activists in the back, morons.

    The platform was designed for citizen action, not for candidates. The current platform is more for candidates and follows the original one proposed in 2000 by the program committee, which devised several proposals to meet the different needs. It far from a triumph of LRC. It’s their admission of defeat. The Program Committee also devided the strategy that brought in Barr AND Gravel. You can expect the LRC to continue to block bringing in ‘turn’s’ like them, as LRC is doing in several states, disrupting local meetings.

    Let’s remember that the so called pragmatists were the people trying to stop us from running candidates 28 years ago. And they still are: witness Gordon’s disastrous dumping of the Crickenberger plan. We should have over 1000 Libs in office now: where are they? They’ll stab Barr in the back the first chance they can, I suspect.

    Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and trying to re-write history, kids.

  41. Lidia Seebeck Says:

    Yeah, I suggest that the 2010 convention be held in Death Valley, CA.

    That way, it can’t possibly rain on us. I hope.

  42. Michael Seebeck Says:

    Lid, that better be a bad joke.

    Death Valley 2010 for the death of the LP? Gawds I hope not.

  43. Jeffrey Quick Says:

    Gene,
    I agree that NeoPagans need to get over themselves. (I did; I became a Christian.) But Barr’s shameful politicing against the Ft Hood Wiccans will not go away. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I need to hear 4 words: “That was a mistake.” Otherwise, why should I not expect that President Barr would do similar things, with more power? This is worse than anything in the Ron Paul Newsletters, but I don’t see anybody who is not a Pagan standing up self-righteously and saying , “I can’t support Barr because he’s a religious bigot.”

  44. Ayn R. Key Says:

    Pagans need to get over themselves….and I speak as a pagan myself.

    Bob Barr doesn’t have to agree with the pagan belief system and neither do pagans have to agree with the Christian belief system.

    His actions regarding the Wiccan issue at Fort Hood is in the distant past. Has he stated recently since becoming a libertarian thathe wishes to pass laws that discriminate against Wiccans? No.

    As a pagan, I’m not asking Barr to agree with us. I’m asking if he will respect our right to believe our own beliefs. As long as Barr refuses to address this issue it is not distant pass. You yourself admitted he has made no statements on this issue. You phrased it as he has made no negative statements, but the full truth is he has made no statements positive or negative.

    His prior position, not discussed at all, is that certain groups of people should not have first amendment rights. That’s a pretty interesting position for the LP presidential candidate to hold. That’s why he needs to discuss it.

    Ominously, he won’t. More ominously, his supporters say we shouldn’t even be asking the question.

  45. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    “Winning a single state is worth more media attention than a high percentage nationally, though in reality one can’t happen without the other.”

    Yep.

    And, as a matter of fact, the quickest way to national media for a third party candidate is to THREATEN to upset the applecart in key battleground states.

    Barr doesn’t have to spend all his time jetting back and forth across the country to get national media, nor does he have to stand outside the Fox studio with hat in hand. If he runs a reasonable national campaign but CONCENTRATES on a few small states in which a strong campaign could change the election results, he won’t be able to get AWAY from the damn cameras.

    The exception to the “small state” rule is Georgia. He may have enough juice there to make a real showing. But every $10k he pumps into New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Idaho and Alaska would be worth $100k in California, New York, Florida, etc.

    If he can plausibly claim to control the outcome in a few states such that the result is other than it would have been had he not done so, he’ll get media. If he can plausibly claim to be positioned to CARRY even ONE such state, the pundits will go orgasmic.

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