Barr falls short in West Virginia

Ballot Access News

According to the West Virginia Secretary of State, petitions for Libertarian Party candidate Bob Barr fell short. He turned in 13,036 of the 15,118 required by state law.

The Barr campaign website says a lawsuit will be filed on Tuesday and they will continue to collect signatures to exceed 20,000. The basis of the lawsuit will in Anderson v. Celebrezze. The LP objects to the “arbitrary date” established by state law for having petition drives completed. Republicans don’t have to officially file until their convention ends in September, so there’s no compelling reason to have independents submit signatures sooner. The Secretary of State’s spokesperson said it was unclear if county clerks will continue to verify signatures on Barr petitions.

Independent Ralph Nader has been certified for the ballot in West Virginia, and Constitution Party nominee Chuck Baldwin submitted 21,704 signatures, which should be sufficient. Cynthia McKinney is on the ballot under the Mountain Party, which has affiliated with the Green Party nationally.

78 Responses to “Barr falls short in West Virginia”

  1. Adam Says:

    No way. There is no way in HELL that Baldwin’s Camp got more signatures that Bob Barr’s. The Libertarian Party is the THIRD largest party in the US (and has the numbers to prove it; I not only REFUSE to believe that Baldwin got more signatures, BUT I reject the notion that more people in West Virginia. would want our country to be run by a theocrat (come on, I’m pro life too, but don’t EVER use religion to defend your posistion against abortion). What are you trying to pull Chuck?

  2. Kelly Parker Says:

    Barr got kind of a late start.

  3. joell Says:

    adam, your refusal to believe does not alter the current reality.

  4. NewFederalist Says:

    Whoa! Adam… chill out. The Barr campaign made the decision to attempt this late in the game after the LP decided to pass on WV. It was a bold decision and it appears it didn’t work. The Baldwin campaign (or perhaps more accurately, the CP) committed resources a lot sooner and got organized weeks ahead of Barr. As I understand it there really is no functioning LP state affiliate in WV at the current time.

  5. Baldwin Boy Says:

    The CP had turned in over 10,000 signatures back in May I think. The Barr campaign made a late run at it with the intent to challenge the deadline which they’re doing just like in Oklahoma. Barr’s camp did give a big boost to Baldwin by allowing their professional petitioners the chance carry the CP petition in addition to their own. This gave us 6k to 10k extra signatures and we couldn’t have done it without them. The double-carrying didn’t hurt their numbers but they could have easily been difficult about it. I hear Nader collected for Barr as well.

    It’s funny how all of the third-party candidates will help each other just for a chance to compete on the ballot. Too bad the two mega-parties want to do the opposite.

  6. GoNolzOhio Says:

    Anyone know our chances of victory in the three states the LP is litigating in (Okla, Mass, WVa.)?

  7. Jim Rongstad Says:

    Baldwin Boy said:

    “It’s funny how all of the third-party candidates will help each other just for a chance to compete on the ballot. Too bad the two mega-parties want to do the opposite.”

    We third party people need to always support each other on the ballot issue. If different (harder) rules are set for third party (and independent) candidates, then we really don’t have free elections.

  8. Eric Dondero Says:

    I’d gladly carry the Constitution Party petition, or any other Conservative Party.

    Green Party, Ralph Nader, or other Leftwing nutballs?

    Not on your life! You couldn’t pay me enough to carry a Nader petition. These are the fuckwads who have blocked our Libertarian petitioners in numerous states around the Nation, and have stolen our locations. They did this back in 2004 in Texas too.

    They have zero scruples. Just like they endorse theft through confiscatory taxation, their petitioners are locations theves.

  9. Eric Dondero Says:

    If you’re a Libertarian petitioner, better not catch a ride with a Nader freak while out on the petitioning trail. They’re likely to turn you into the cops for not wearing your seat belt.

  10. Laine Says:

    I’d turn your seatbelt less ass in myself Eric.

  11. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    “Green Party, Ralph Nader, or other Leftwing nutballs? Not on your life!”

    Bullshit. You carried petitions for leftwing nutball Joseph Lieberman in 2006.

  12. Richie Says:

    LOL @ Laine

    +1

  13. G.E. Says:

    Of course, IPR had this right from the get-go, while TPW and its commenters just pretended the Emperor was fully clothed:

    1. Jonathan Says:

    August 1st, 2008 at 9:46 am

    From this web site that trashes Barr, the owner is a purist reports:

    West Virginia Libertarian petition reportedly fails
    August 1st, 2008 · 4 Comments
    According to a field report by one of the Libertarian petitioners on the ground in West Virginia, as of tonight’s final turn-in of signatures by petitioners to the campaign, the LP gathered only around 12,000 raw signatures, falling short of the 15,118 required by state law. While additional signatures would be required to survive a challenge, the bare minimum required by law would have been enough if there was no challenge.

    1. Joey Dauben Says:
    August 1st, 2008 at 10:39 am

    And those guys had the nerve to attack me for supporting Wayne Allyn Root (because they always linked me to Dondero lol) and posting other news items on this site …Independent Political Report is a sham if they keep this “reporting” up.

    1. Jonathan Says:
    August 1st, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    ofcourse the IPR is wrong they always leave a little room for error but they try their best to give a negative spin every chance he gets

  14. Cody Quirk Says:

    No way. There is no way in HELL that Baldwin’s Camp got more signatures that Bob Barr’s.

    = Yes way, we started WAY earlier then Barr did and the CPWV affiliate there has gotten very organized in the past few months too.

    Deal with it.

  15. Adam Says:

    so, I’m to believe that Theocrat got more signatures than a someone that has the idea of using the constitution?

  16. Derek Says:

    This would be easier if West Virginia would allow ballot access for parties reaching 15,000 votes. On the other hand, I think the actual ballot access reform should be a number of signatures equal to the square root of the top race in an election year.

  17. Amazing Kreskin Says:

    so, I’m to believe that Theocrat got more signatures than a someone that has the idea of using the constitution?

    It has nothing to do with ideology, everything to do with organization.

    And Kudos to IPR for getting it right!

  18. timothy west Says:

    cut your losses and move on. WV is hostile to LP ideals.

  19. Amazing Kreskin Says:

    WV is hostile to LP ideals.

    With proper organization they would have had no problem getting on the ballot.

  20. Cody Quirk Says:

    Take your head out of the sand Adam, Baldwin beat Barr to the punch in WV; he started earlier on in petitioning then Barr.

    BTW, The scrap-goading is not working, stop sounding like a Leftist.

  21. Eric Dondero Says:

    Oh Knapp, remind me please. Was that the same “Leftwinger Lieberman” who was being slammed by Lamont for favoring an end to affirmative action, Bush’s tax cuts, and school vouchers?

    Was that the same “Leftwinger” who was endorsed by William F. Buckley III?

  22. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Eric,

    Yep, we’re talking about the same left-wing nutjob.

    As far as West Virginia is concerned, it’s neither as bad/meaningful nor as minor/meaningless as most people seem to be making it out to be.

    Yes, Baldwin and the CP got more signatures (far more, and with a much higher validity rate) by the deadline. They got started early and they put management of their drive in competent (to the particular task) hands. The LP did neither. Matter of fact, the LP had written the state off and the Barr campaign came back to it post-nomination, meaning a late start; then the campaign made a couple of poor managerial decisions, making it even harder.

  23. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Actually, Eric, Lieberman opposed affirmative action before 2000.

    But after Gore picked Lieberman for his VP candidate, Lieberman backpeddled and supported affirmative action.

    I don’t know what his current view is. I guess it depends on what’s convenient.

  24. Green in Brooklyn Says:

    I can’t believe we’re actually arguing about Lieberman on a 3rd party blog. Lieberman is not nor has he ever been an independent – he is a corporate entity – end of story.

  25. Jim Peterson Says:

    I started to lose interest in Bob Barr when he failed to talk about the worst threat to my freedom: the complete capitulation of the Republican Party to feminists.

    He doesn’t seem to realize that the male vote is up for grabs…but he apparently does not WANT it.

    Laws like IMBRA and VAWA both interfere with the rights of American males to even say hello to women and to marry whomever wants to marry them..

    Now I have learned that Obama has beaten Bob Barr to the punch in openly accusing McCain of having a lobbyist for Georgia on his staff who might get us into a war with Russia.

    McCain’s people then openly mischaracterized the current conflict to win over the uneducated type that wants a new Cold War with Russia to add to the WOT.

    We cannot afford to make Russia the enemy of the United States.

    Shockingly, for the first time ever, Obama holds a tenuous hold on my vote.

    This cannot be because I have NEVER wanted to vote for a Democrat.

    Bob Barr needs to come out swinging on McCain’s anti-Russia stance.

  26. Jim Peterson Says:

    If dead American mercenaries are found by the Russians in South Ossetia as they clean up, there is going to be diplomatic hell to pay and Congress will need to immediately investigate.

    Is Bob Barr really going to be silent on this?

  27. Adam Says:

    I don’t think he will

  28. Richard Says:

    Libertarians should back off West Virginia. We lost there. Time to admit defeat for Barr to be listed. We need to concentrate on writing his name in. We need more recognition than lawsuits. Dump the money on advertisements. The only problem I see, Barr is a lawyer so he only thinks about lawsuits, even when other ideas may be more effective. Ballot access is a states rights issue. States rights doesn’t always help you, but if our position is states rights, we need to honor their choices even when we think it is wrong. Lets educate the public on ballot access issues and work with governments to improve it. Fighting them in court is sometimes counter productive when you’re trying to prove to the people that you really are a sensible choice.

  29. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Richard,

    You’re missing the forest for the trees. Litigating for easier and fairer ballot access is one of the few things the Barr campaign is doing that’s likely to make a lasting positive difference.

    If Barr manages to invalidate West Virginia’s arbitrary and capricious early deadline for third parties and independents, the “no substitution” rules in Massachusetts and New Hampshire, and maybe even Oklahoma’s downright Third World election system, he’ll be saving all third party and independent candidates money and effort in 2012 and beyond—money and effort they can put into other things.

    The money and effort put into such litigation isn’t going to make the difference between Barr winning and losing the election—he was never going to win it.

    The money and effort put into such litigation isn’t going to hurt efforts to get a libertarian public policy agenda in front of the voters, since Barr is running on a Dixiecrat/conservative public policy agenda. Better to spend that money on helpful ballot access work than on harmful (to the LP and the freedom movement) television commercials.

  30. Carl M Says:

    Adam: regarding the LP being the third largest political party, this may be untrue effectively, as it appears at least half the party is sitting on its hands. Go to google blogs and you will find very little interest in Barr—rather telling given the number of Libertarian bloggers.

    Regarding Barr and Dixiecrats, I just did a search of “Jesse Helms site:www.lewrockwell.com” Came up with this beauty:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/dmccarthy/dmccarthy19.html

    My question is: why don’t more radical libertarians get bent out of shape when the Lew Rockwell crowd takes the Dixiecrat stance and worse?

  31. John c jackson Says:

    So did the Barr camp come up short on purpose so they could challenge in court and try to win and set some precedent?

    I will save Barr-bashing for another issue where he is more deserving.

    Maybe the finger should be pointed at the LP. It has been established that the LP “wrote Virginia off.” We all know what they say about hindsight. However, why would the LP write off a state where both a conservative 3rd party candidate and a liberal independent candidate were EASILY ( not saying the work was easy, just that they surpassed the numbers) able qualify for the ballot.

    I know there is some debate over using resources to get 50 state access, but it might seem kind of lazy to be the party that can get 48 or 49 because we just arent as good as Baldwin or Nader in WV.

  32. John c jackson Says:

    Carl,
    Perhaps that LRC article is what landed the author a job with the Ron Paul campaign.

    FWIW some ( definitely not all) of the people who are outraged over Barr’s “dixiecraticness” were big fanboys of the LRC’s neoconfederates and bigtime apologists ( to the point of attacking the character of much better libertarians) of the whole Ron Paul Newsletter thing.

    Barr sucks on a lot of issues. He is worth opposing for many legit reasons. I just find this particular aspect interesting.

  33. Eric Dondero Says:

    Richard has a good point. The Barr Campaign need to now concentrate on an effort to qualify as an official write-in in West Virginia, and also Oklahoma.

    In 1988, we in the Ron Paul Campaign neglected to do this in the 4 states we missed: North Carolina, Oklahoma, West Virginia and Indiana.

  34. Clark Says:

    test..

  35. Clark Says:

    “As I understand it there really is no functioning LP state affiliate in WV at the current time.”

    ...sounds like the wave of the future for the LP..

    btw…as an experienced, intuitive, amazingly accurate cyber-health diagnostician i STRONGLY suspect dunder0, tiny tim west, adum, donutsohio, all you shit-heads who barf upon ‘Libertarianism,’ monetary ignoramusses, etc. could benefit from a good thorough cleansing…some testimonials for you:..

    ...”Once I completed my first cleanse, which consisted of a fiber supplement, anti-parasite capsules and a detoxifying tea, I managed to convince my husband to also give it a try. He ended up continuing the program for three months and throughout this period not a day went by without something rather “unusual” leaving his body. His stools contained a lot of mucus, chunks of debris that resembled cooked liver, long black twisted rope-like pieces, and the things he was most ashamed of – parasites.

    My husband’s childhood friend was also on the program for a couple of weeks when interesting things started happening. He was beside himself when he called us late one evening:

    click to enlarge

    “I’ve been standing over the toilet for an hour. I can’t imagine where these things could possibly be coming from! One is about 25 inches long, the other looks to be about 15 inches. I don’t know what they are, but I do know that I’ve never eaten anything that resembles these!”

  36. Citizens For A Better Veterans Home[s] Says:

    Adam, you are ranting on opinions! What are you going to claim next? Join ‘Peace Candidate’ Hilary in decrying the ‘Vast Right Wing Conspiracy’? Join Bill Clinton [and later, John Edwards] ‘I did not have sex with that woman’? Join the Patrick and Bay Buchanan team and their promise to leave Bible Thumping out of [reform movement based] campaigning and politicking?

    Facts, facts, facts.

  37. Trent Hill Says:

    “No way. There is no way in HELL that Baldwin’s Camp got more signatures that Bob Barr’s.”

    Actually—-yes, we did. =)
    But we got started sooner.

  38. timothy west Says:

    I was asked directly by Bill Redpath about WV and I strongly advised him to not spend a dime of LP money in this state as doing so would waste resources better used where Barr was/is polling strong.

    i stand by that advice and I wish the Barr Campaign had taken it. They would have saved a lot of money and lost nothing.

    the vast majority of actual voters here are over 65 and on social security and medicare. WV has the 3rd highest concentration of the elderly and disabled in the country. Not exactly LP friendly.

    people here LIKE government and view it as the only thing that saved them from the robber barons of the 1900’s when the coal unionization wars started and the “private guards” hired by the coal companies started shooting the miners when they expressed a desire to unionize the mines.

  39. Anti-Racist Says:

    My question is: why don’t more radical libertarians get bent out of shape when the Lew Rockwell crowd takes the Dixiecrat stance and worse?

    They should.

  40. Howard Cosell Says:

    So did the Barr camp come up short on purpose so they could challenge in court and try to win and set some precedent?

    No, they just fucked up. The lawsuit is a hail mary pass.

  41. Amazing Kreskin Says:

    # Clark Says:
    August 10th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

    “As I understand it there really is no functioning LP state affiliate in WV at the current time.”

    ...sounds like the wave of the future for the LP..

    btw…as an experienced, intuitive, amazingly accurate cyber-health diagnostician i STRONGLY suspect dunder0, tiny tim west, adum, donutsohio, all you shit-heads who barf upon ‘Libertarianism,’ monetary ignoramusses, etc. could benefit from a good thorough cleansing…some testimonials for you:..

    ...”Once I completed my first cleanse, which consisted of a fiber supplement, anti-parasite capsules and a detoxifying tea, I managed to convince my husband to also give it a try. He ended up continuing the program for three months and throughout this period not a day went by without something rather “unusual” leaving his body. His stools contained a lot of mucus, chunks of debris that resembled cooked liver, long black twisted rope-like pieces, and the things he was most ashamed of – parasites.

    My husband’s childhood friend was also on the program for a couple of weeks when interesting things started happening. He was beside himself when he called us late one evening:

    click to enlarge

    “I’ve been standing over the toilet for an hour. I can’t imagine where these things could possibly be coming from! One is about 25 inches long, the other looks to be about 15 inches. I don’t know what they are, but I do know that I’ve never eaten anything that resembles these!”

    LOL + 1

  42. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Carl,

    You write:

    “My question is: why don’t more radical libertarians get bent out of shape when the Lew Rockwell crowd takes the Dixiecrat stance and worse?”

    That’s an interesting question.

    If nothing else, I hope I can take some credit for consistency on the issue, having denounced the “neo-Dixiecrat” strategy as developed by Rothbard/Rockwell and implemented by Paul at least as vehemently as I’ve denounced Barr’s version.

    Of course, the comparison only goes so far. The R/R/P version was more openly and nauseatingly racist and homophobic than the Barr version in form; the Barr version seems to be less libertarian than the R/R/P version in substance. That may explain some of the differences in reaction.

  43. Stefan Says:

    Thomas: so based on what you are saying all those with the BTP that refer to Ron Paul positively – and there are a few at least – should all be denounced as “neoDixiecrat” racists and homophobics. I call on you to be honest and drive them all out of the BTP!

    Jesse Ventura must then also be a racist and homophobe as he is expressly for old federalism, which means powers to the states. Take a listen to this 11.21.2002 discussion with Jesse Ventura – where there are two African-Americans – and mention this criticism of Bush on domestic policy:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBnAAlIQ10A (Funny, one does not hear the two African-Americans raising anything about racism).

    Sorry, you are pawned.

  44. Eric Dondero Says:

    Timothy, the same could be said about a bunch of other States; that people are mainly on welfare and “love the government.”

    I just left Connecticut petitioning for the Libertarian Party. It was absolutely frightening the amount of welfare dependency in the State. It seems like EVERYONE in CT is on the government dole to some extent or the other. I’m in Maine now, and it ain’t much different up here either.

    Yes, New Hampshire has less government dependency. And my home State of Texas has far less government dependency.

    But the government dependent States these days, Ohio, Michigan, WV, CT, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, ect… far outnumber the non-dependent States.

    It’s like Phil Gramm used to say: Too many in the wagon, not enough pulling it.

  45. Eric Dondero Says:

    Timely news that’s a tad bit embarassing for Tom Knapp:

    Knapp asserts that the Bob Barr Campaign is “silently bigoted” and “Dixiecrat.”

    Guess that explains why Bob Barr and Wayne Root just got a glowing endorsement from one of California’s Top Hispanic Political Activists Art Pedroza.

    See the full story at Libertarian Republican blog, (click on link above).

  46. M Carling Says:

    Yes, the LP decided to concentrate limited resources elsewhere and pass on WV. Yes, the Barr/Root campaign got a late start petitioning in WV. This is yet another reason why the LP should hold its nominating conventions earlier. The current schedule does not give our presidential campaigns enough time following the nomination to raise money and participate effectively in winning ballot access.

  47. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    I notice that Eric Dondero, in typical fashion, ignored my observation that Lieberman flip-flopped and supported affirmative action when he ran as Gore’s VP pick in 2000.

    I repeat this because Eric will likely once again lie, on some other thread, that Lieberman opposes affirmative action.

    The usual pattern:

    (1) Dondero says X.

    (2) Someone demonstrates that Dondero is wrong.

    (3) Dondero ignores that person.

    (4) Dondero repeats X on some other thread.

  48. Joey G Says:

    Why is it that any party besides the Rep & Dems need to have signatures? I believe that those two parties are afriad of losing power to common sense. It is time we change the rules so that real change can happen.
    What do you all think? Let me know at independenceminnesot.org. A major party in Minnesota.

  49. Roscoe Says:

    Concur with M Carling. Hold the nominating convention no later than end of April. May weather provides a good petitioning month in most states.
    On another note, States Rights may be fine for governor, state legislator, etc. but for president there should be more uniformity or a citizen of one state may be denied his right to vote for the politician who will be (unfortunately) controlling his wallet and his life.

  50. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Mr. Dondero,

    I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “silently bigoted” in my life. You have a bad habit of quoting people saying things they never said. One of these days it’s probably going to cost you significant money when you do it to someone who likes to litigate.

    Could someone explain to Mr. Dondero the fallacy of attempting to define somoeone’s ideology in terms of whom that someone has been endorsed, condemned or commented upon by?

    Per to Mr. Dondero’s logic, Barack Obama is a “libertarian,” having been called one by, among others, George F. Will.

  51. Citizens For A Better Veterans Home[s] Says:

    Opinion One: Has Pope Benedict 16 formally endorsed Eric for POTUS, yet?

    ***********************

    timothy west Says:
    August 10th, 2008 at 11:19 pm

    I was asked directly by Bill Redpath about WV and I strongly advised him to not spend a dime of LP money in this state as doing so would waste resources

    Opinion Two: These sound like Ralph Nader’s long distance East Coast law school summer vacationing students and the failed P2004 California ballot access effort.

  52. Eric Dondero Says:

    I notice Thomas Sipos ignores the fact that Ned Lamont, a fellow far-Leftwinger pal of his, slammed Joe Lieberman in TV commercial after TV commercial as being a “Rightwinger” who wanted to slash welfare, end affirmative action, get rid of Teacher’s Unions, and cut taxes.

  53. Eric Dondero Says:

    Using “Mr. Dondero’s logic” anyone who scores over 65/65 on the New Political Spectrum is a “libertarian” by definition. That does not include 5/10 scorers like Barack Hussein Obama.

  54. Eric Dondero Says:

    Funny Mr. Knapp ignores the fact that Art Pedroza of the HUGELY POPULAR California Blog Orange Juice, and a Hispanic Activist, just endorsed Bob Barr/Wayne Root.

    Notice how Knapp tries to change the subject, and ignore the point of the post?

  55. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Eric,

    I don’t ignore the point of your post—the point of your post is that if one is endorsed by a minority, one couldn’t possibly be a racist, and that if one is called “right-wing” or “libertarian” by one’s opponents, one is obviously whatever one’s opponents are calling him.

    Point taken. I’m one of your opponents. I’m calling you and idiot. Per your logic, you are, therefore, an idiot.

  56. Citizens For A Better Veterans Home[s] Says:

    Notice how Eric Dondero tries to change the subject, and ignore the point of the post? ——-Probably cause so many learn to ignore his blogs, rantings, Papal endorsement[s], non existent military service, and postings.

    Say hello to the current Bishop of Roma ——supposedly your buddy!

  57. Clark Says:

    ...thanks, kreskin…i try to lighten up the dreary, ‘life is but a petition drive,’ ‘head-buried in-colon,’ existence many of the republicrat poster children around here reveal..

    ..i’ve tried repeatedly to $teer the conver$ation to much much much muchmuchmuch more important thing$...without much luck..

    ...con$equently, we witness, for example, chuckleheads assigning numbers to people based upon some ECONOMIC ‘literacy’/belief/etc…the chuckleheads themselves WORSE THAN GODDAMNED IGNORANT AS TO EVEN THE BASICS OF ‘MONEY’ (It’s issuance, nature, origin, history, etc..)..the most ubiquitous ECONOMIC commodity!...

    ...i’ve tried to tell them that that their constant, fucking stoooooooooooooooopid fretting about, for example, the latest phony fucking polls, etceterot ad goddamned nauseam, is worse than a mere complete waste of time…

    ...isn’t it obvious the GI-FUCKING-GANTIC REPUBLICRAT PROPAGANDA MEDIA CORPORATION$ WILL TRY EVERYTHING IN THEIR VAST POWER TO MAKE SURE ANYONE, ANY THING, ETC., ANY THREAT TO THE EXI$TING ROTTEN $TINKING ORDER IS MARGINALIZED OR WORSE…(as the exi$ting, rotten, $tinking order is ‘berry berry good for/to $ome’..)...it seems some dummies enjoy playing the part of puppet/fool for some real $tringpuller$!...

    ...as one wag put it, ‘it seems many goddamned fool republicrats, you ‘3rd party’ republicrats too, flail at the leaves of the tree of evil whilst leaving the root$ untouched.. ;o)

  58. Paul K. Says:

    In ballot drives close don’t count. Whoever makes the decision need to have a hard headed appraisal of cost/benefit of doing a ballot drive. In a way, it’s just math:

    How many signatures needed/ times expected validity rate/ divided by number of days/equals number of signatures per day/ divided by number of petitioners available. If the bottom line is more than 75 signatures per petitioner per day you’re in trouble, more than 100 you’re screwed (there are non-math adjustments for “difficulty”, such as voter requirements, geographical distribution, population density and general popularity of candidate. I would give WV a 2x on difficulty.

    Therefore, my rough calculation is the LP needed something like 8 petitioners full time beginning right after the convention to get on w/o too much difficulty. Of course, you also have to have reliable money to pay for the above – particularly for good professional petitioners to get a good validity rate and production. Possible, if planned and funded.

    I would guess the LP decided that they didn’t have the approximately $50k available and the needed petitioners to comit earlier than the convention. I would guess the Barr campaign underestimated the difficulty and waited too long to start.

    I’m curious about the actual numbers and how well they fit into my formula.

    A failed ballot drive is worse than useless.

  59. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Well, Dondero, many of your rightist friends at Free Republic are calling Lieberman (and McCain) a liberal and a leftist.

    So by your logic, Lieberman and McCain are Leftists.

    And since you like Lieberman and McCain, by your logic, YOU must be a Leftist too.

    And since you’re calling Lamont—a man I never met—my friend, by your logic, you won’t mind if I call everyone at Free Republic your friend.

    Gee, the world is so much simplier using Dondero-logic. One need only barf an opinion, and it becomes fact.

  60. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Paul,

    You write:

    “A failed ballot drive is worse than useless.”

    I’m not trying to defend the poor leadership and decisionmaking that went into the Barr/LP failure in West Virginia, but in point of fact failed ballot drives can be very useful.

    The West Virginia petition signature deadline is arbitrary and capricious—neither the Democrats nor the Republicans even had a nominee by that deadline, yet they will both beyond question be accorded ballot access. The deadline should fall to litigation, and having shown a good-faith effort to meet the deadline before suing will presumably weigh in the LP’s favor in that litigation.

  61. Rufus Abu Bakr Says:

    GP, CP and Nader all are on in WV. Case dismissed.

  62. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Quoth Rufus Abu Bakr:

    “GP, CP and Nader all are on in WV. Case dismissed.”

    The GOP and Democrats will also be on in WV, even though the deadline has passed and they haven’t even formally chosen their candidates, let alone gathered or submitted petition signatures. Case remains open.

  63. Eric Dondero Says:

    Mr. Knapp, call me an idiot if you wish. Any vulgar term would be fine with me. Just don’t call me by my first name. That privledge is reserved for my friends.

    You lost my friendship when you failed to assist me as you promised you would in picking up those incoming petitioners to the St. Louis Airport to bring them to E. St. Louis, IL, skipping out on your pledge to me. That little stunt, btw, costed me a full day of petitioning.

  64. timothy west Says:

    Clark,

    what’s the value of a dollar?

    seriously…. what is it? short and simple, please.

  65. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Eric,

    Nice re-writing of history. I never promised to pick anyone up for you—and it was I who ended our friendly acquaintance due to your repeated public lies about your betters.

    And I’ll call you anything I damn well please.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  66. Eric Dondero Says:

    About my “betters”? What in the hell does that mean? I’m assuming you graduated high school. Try some proper English next time in your posts.

    And yes, you most certainly did promise to pick those petitioners up at the airport in St. Louis and shuffle them back to Illinois. And it wasn’t for “me” it was for the Libertarian Party. Too bad you skipped out on your pledge to help. But then again, you’re a anarchist Boston Tea Party partisan, not a real Libertarian.

    Ya know, I might even have the email exchanges on that. Let me go check…

  67. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Eric,

    You write:

    “Ya know, I might even have the email exchanges on that. Let me go check…”

    No need to check. I checked before I responded, just to make sure that this wasn’t the single time in all of recorded history that you were right about something when I was wrong about it.

    On May 28th, you wrote, in an email to me:

    “Are you available to assist in any way with logistics, like airport runs from Lambert to East. St. Louis?”

    Almost immediately, I replied:

    “I may be able to help. I’ll get back with you later today.”

    A few hours after that, after you publicly posted a number of blatant lies concerning one of your betters (which, by the way, is proper English as you would know if you were fluent in that language) which, from my perspective, constituted the straw that broke the camel’s back, I wrote to you:

    “Go fuck yourself, or not—but whichever you decide, stay the hell
    away from me.”

    To which you replied:

    “Guess that means you’re not going to be assisting our effort with Illinois. We have some guys coming in this weekend. That’s okay, I’ll do it myself.”

    And to which I in turn replied:

    “As long as I don’t have to be around you to do that, I might still be willing to. Have someone else contact me about it if necessary, because after you receive this message I’m asking you to lose my email address.”

    Which, after a tirade demonstrating your aforementioned lack of acquaintance with English vocabulary and usage, I believe you did.

    Nobody else contacted me about serving as a taxi driver to get people from Lambert to East St. Louis (which, as I had already mentioned to you, happen to be connected by light rail that’s much quicker and probably cheaper than car transport in any case, with no need for passing said car through TSA roadblocks and paying as much for parking as it would cost to transport two petitioners on said train).

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  68. Eric Dondero Says:

    The individual was coming in from Alaska. Flew through Chicago. Great way to start a petitioning job, 7 hour flight from Anchorage to Chicago, than another 2 hour flight from Chi to St. Louis, than be told by the local petitioners on the ground, “find your own damn transportation… there’s a bus you can catch… we ain’t picking you up.”

    Golly gee there Knapp, you really know how to inspire people to stand out in the hot sun and collect signatures all day long for the LP.

  69. Timothy West Says:

    Clark,

    what’s the value of a dollar?

  70. kenneth Says:

    Yeah, Tomothy West’s strategy is working great in his home state.

    The problem is the LRC’s relentless attacks and harrassment of Lib activists there. Now of course they’ll blame those activists they kept out of the loop.

    What about controls against phony signatures?

  71. kenneth Says:

    And what is West’s relation with the attacks and government harrassment of the Canadian LP?

    Who do you work for, Tim?

  72. kenneth Says:

    RE: Carl M Says: August 10th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
    “Adam: regarding the LP being the third largest political party, this may be untrue effectively, as it appears at least half the party is sitting on its hands. Go to google blogs and you will find very little interest in Barr—rather telling given the number of Libertarian bloggers.”

    No kidding. What Kant-loving anti-Black jerk do we have to thank for that?

  73. Clark Says:

    TWICE WEST BLITHERS: “Clark, what’s the value of a dollar? (END)

    ..pardon me for saying so, but….that’s a really stoooooooooooopid question, west..

    ...of course, ‘the value’ of ‘a dollar’ is subjective, variable, etc…

    ...for example, to you that exotic ‘tingling peepee cream,’ of which you consume gallons/year, has more ‘value’ than the ‘25 dollars’/bottle you shell out..others wouldn’t ‘value’ it at a stinking dime as they can get laid for free and don’t have to frequently lather and skin their weasels for entertainment/relief..

    ...to dunder0, some ‘dollars’ have more ‘value’ than his time as a signature collector…so he exchanges his time and collects fucking signatures for some ‘dollars’..

    ...if you’re standing by a clear mountain stream, ‘the dollar value’ of a glass of water isn’t much…but if you’re dying of thirst in a desert that same glass of water, with some dirt in it, is probably pretty ‘valuable’..

    ...get it, dummy?

    ...btw, i NEVER talk about ‘the value’ of a fucking ‘dollar’..as would some goddamned fool…

    ...i try to communicate the hideous nature of ‘our’ money (issuance, etc..) system…and how YOU west, and, in my experience, most/all other republicrats are butt-ignorant here..

    ...unfortunately you, west, and other republicrats, appear worse than merely unaware of the fraudulent nature, origin, etc. of ‘the money thing’..(maybe you somehow believe you understand all that is ‘important’ here)

    ...but i would bet big that if you ever do become aware…you will spend MUCH LESS of your precious time wondering ‘why thing$ are the way they are’...

    ...wondering why, for example, you phony ‘Libertarians’ ‘can’t get any media,’ etc. ad goddamned nau$eam…(btw, lately it pleases me you faux ‘Libertarians’ can’t get any media)

    ..but have an otherwi$e ‘valuable’ day, west, etcetercrats!.. ;o)

  74. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Eric,

    Golly gee, you said I promised to pick people up at the airport. The fact is I did no such thing. Both before and after I declined to work with you, I indicated that if someone from the Illinois LP wanted to get with me about arrival times, etc., I could probably help out. I never heard from anyone.

    Even so, I gave you the information you needed to get them from where they would be (the airport) to where they needed to go (East St. Louis) in air-conditioned comfort with the fewest hassles for them or their host—and dirt cheap to boot. From either terminal of Lambert Field, you can walk out the door, straight onto a train (one leaves every ten minutes) and arrive in East St. Louis a short time later for three bucks, having traveled the whole way in air-conditioned comfort.

    If I had met the petitioners and escorted them, that’s the way we would have traveled—cheaper, less complicated and more comfortable than navigating the TSA checkpoints, paying for airport parking, etc. then jamming them into a car without air conditioning and letting them bake in urban traffic for an hour getting there.

    If getting your petitioners from the airport to East St. Louis turned into a difficult and time-consuming operation, that’s because you don’t listen very well.

  75. Eric Dondero Says:

    There is no Libertarian Party in Metro-East St. Louis. That’s why you got no phone call from them, and that’s PRECISELY WHY I needed your help with this.

    Bottom Line: You costed one of the Libertarian Party’s best petitioners – ME - a full day’s work, by not simply picking up Mike from Alaska that day at St. Louis Lambert Airport, as you originally indicated you would do. If you had only picked him up, the LP would have had 250 to 300 more signatures for the LP IL drive.

    But you couldn’t lift a friggin’ finger to help, and worse, left me hanging at the very last minute.

  76. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Eric,

    The supply sergeant at my old unit had a plaque on his desk. It read: “Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.”

    If you had spent more time thinking about your arrangements for petitioner transportation and less time libeling Steve Kubby on the Internet while simultaneously expecting his friends to take up your slack, the situation in question would never have arisen.

    I did not “cost” anyone anything, because I never “indicated” that I would do what you’re pretending I “indicated” I’d do (any more than I had “promised” to do it as you previously falsely stated).

    As a matter of fact, I did give you the best assistance you could possibly have gotten—I told you how to get that petitioner from the airport to East St. Louis in the way that was fastest, cheapest, most comfortable and required the least distraction on the part of anyone else working on the petition effort. I never had the information with which to do anything beyond that.

  77. Timothy West Says:

    ‘Clark’:

    how come you just wont answer my question? I want to know what YOU think the value of a dollar is. Are you going to answer my question or not?

  78. Mona Steele Says:

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